Iraq referendum-a question for Bush supporters - Page 3

Zoe · #21 (**permalink**) 06-09-2006, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omegaman";p=&quot

zoe wrote: "We already know from surveys that the outcome would suggest a strong preference for U.S. withdrawal. Would you accept this (democratic) Iraqi decision and urge the administration to bring the troops home??? "
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NO. First your question is based on a false premise, "...suggest a strong preference for U.S. withdrawal". This is not true. Yes, the majority would like for the US to leave, any country would, but NOT before we defeat the terrorist and they are ready to defend themselves. If such a vote were taken today by the Iraqis they would vote for the US to stay. This should be evident in the overwhelming celebrations in the Iraqi streets over the death, by the US, of this murderous creature.
Second, it is up to the Iraqi government as to if we stay. If the Iraq government told us they wanted us to leave, and that they feel they can defend themselves, then there would be a strong argument for leaving BUT as long as there are terrorist there the world is in danger. It would be a hard decision and I think we should/would try and convince them that until the terrorist have been defeated they need our help as well as the fact these murderers are also a danger to the US and the rest of the free world. If the Iraqi government insisted that we leave then we would leave but reluctantly.

You have unsubstantiated assertions, based on what? The information suggests that foreign jihaddis comprise a small % of the insurgency. And indeed Zarqawi's demise is celebrated. At this point Iraqis continue to experience chaos and ethnic tension. The terrorists that you speak of are not a single ideology with one face. U.S. presence has only magnified the problem.. Did you fail to watch "Frontline" a couple of days ago? I don't speak Arabic , do you?? so I read alot of stuff with an array of political moorings. Michael Ware has been interviewing Iraqis for many years. Iraqis really dislike the U.S. ; they want us to leave. The only question ,here, that I can see, is how quickly they want us to leave and whether they will tolerate permanent military bases.

apotropoxy · #22 (**permalink**) 06-09-2006, 08:07 PM

[quote]

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Originally Posted by catzmeow";p=&quot

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The countries the wingers have listed are those that lost a war to us

All 38? Hardly.
Further, not a winger.

This is your quote from earlier in this thread:

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How long after WWII have we had permanent bases in Italy, Germany, and Japan?

... and these are the countries to which I referred.

The USA has troops in over 100 countries right now. We give them good money for the privilege.

I would point to the Philippines as being a better example of unwelcomed occupation. Not exact... but closer to the Iraqi situation.

If you tell me you're not a winger then I will accept that.

I wish you the best of luck with your coming nuptials.

Sadistic-Savior · #23 (**permalink**) 06-11-2006, 09:47 PM

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I think this speaks clearly to the issue.

Your poll does not contradict the one I cited, or any of the others within the last year. BFD.

The fact remains: You have no evidence that a majority (or even a large minority) of Iraqis want us to leave immediately. None. It is an assumption you are making.

You are drawing conclusions that are counter to what the Iraqis have actually said in the polls; both official and unofficial.

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Of course, I am not anticipating that there will be a referendum just because I think that it is a good idea. I present it as a hypothetical.

There is no need for a hypothetical. The Iraqis have made it clear what they want. In both official and unofficial polls.

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Even if the poll you posted is accurate it spells out to me that most Iraqis want to see a plan for U.S. withdrawal in the not too distant future.

They do not seem to have the same definition of "not to distant" as you do.

And the poll I posted was not the only one. Just the most recent. Previous polls from other sources have been consistent with those results.

Zoe · #24 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 05:15 AM

67% feel LESS secure because of U.S. presence- that does not contradict your poll?!

In any case you are willfully ignoring the point of this thread which is that I am NOT making assumptions. I am asking a hypothetical. You and I and everyone on this forum are fumbling about, trying to understand what is happening in Iraq, filtered through an unreliable media, from a great distance and with an ignorance of the Arabic language. Polls are not reliable unless the repondents are assured anonymity. I posed the question because I wanted to know if -in a hypothetical scenario- war supporters on this forum, would respect the wishes of Iraq if, through a referendum, they ask the coalition forces to leave their country. Maybe they would not, I don't know! But based on the responses, here, I would say that Quiller's answer is "No, America doesn't care what they think" and your response is "no, they wouldn't and anyhow 6 months - 2 years is a long time."

Sadistic-Savior · #25 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

67% feel LESS secure because of U.S. presence- that does not contradict your poll?!

Nope. Because all my polls say the exact same thing. The results are consistent.

What that tells me is that even though they hate US presence in their country, they see us as a necessary evil for their eventual success. That is not contradictory. You are simply forcusing on one result to the excclusion of the others.

Quote:

In any case you are willfully ignoring the point of this thread which is that I am NOT making assumptions. I am asking a hypothetical.

You are asking it in the hopes that the Referendum will give you the results that you want. In essence, you have nothing to lose, because the existing polls run counter to your current conclusions anyway.

In short: Your question is disingenuous.

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You and I and everyone on this forum are fumbling about, trying to understand what is happening in Iraq

I am not fumbling. The existing polls have answered most of the questions I had.

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filtered through an unreliable media

The polls are from a variety of media, most of it foreign.

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from a great distance and with an ignorance of the Arabic language.

It is unlikely the people who actually did the polling were ignorant of Aribic. Even if they were, you have no way of knowing that.

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Polls are not reliable unless the repondents are assured anonymity.

Who says they were not?

And you will probably use anonymity against us if the Referendum didnt turn out in your favor anyway. You would claim the results were fixed.

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I posed the question because I wanted to know if -in a hypothetical scenario- war supporters on this forum, would respect the wishes of Iraq if, through a referendum, they ask the coalition forces to leave their country.

The answer is yes. Next question.

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Maybe they would not, I don't know! But based on the responses, here, I would say that Quiller's answer is "No, America doesn't care what they think"

You have zero basis for that conclusion. I will do you the favor of starting an actual poll to put your fears to rest. No need to thank me.

http://politicalforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=247135#247135

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