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Old 05-29-2004, 03:38 PM
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Default weak

You have a very weak understanding of the U.S.
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Old 05-29-2004, 03:40 PM
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Default ....

Quote:
They say they love democracy while they are serving greedy capitalists.
I assume you are a communist by your name. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it the communists that murdered or sent to prison camps anyone who didn't agree with them? Wasn't it the communists that kept the ruling party rich and the rest of society poor and ignorant about everything? Communism ruined the lives of thousands and thousands of people. You sir are a moron.

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They say they love peace while in reality, they are beating the **POINTLESS PROFANITY REMOVED PER TERMS OF USE - POSTING PROFANITY MAY GET YOU BANNED** out of other countries, killing more people then Nazi Germany ever did.
That is just not true.
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Old 05-29-2004, 07:16 PM
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Default Rebuttal

1. True, the French did help us in the War of Independence. However, America has helped (or tried to help) France in The Napoleonic Wars, World War I, World War II, and Vietnam.

2. I suppose then, that Britain (Rev. War, War of 1812), Mexico (Mexican War), Spain (Spanish American War), Germany (World War I, World War II), Italy (World War II), Japan (World War II), and Iraq (Both Gulf Wars- in the first one, they had the 4th largest army in the world) were all poor countries?

3. A clear majority of the American people supported the war in Iraq.

4. True, we did support Pinochet but to understand that you must look at the US policy of containment at that time. Our priority was to protect ourselves by containing communism, and Allende was an outright communist. However, when Pinochet's human rights violations became apparent, we no longer supported him but rather supported the UK's arrest and prosecution of the vile dictator.

5. The liberty statue (or Statue of Liberty as we call it) has nothing to do with liberalism. The only thing in common is the first 5 letters.

6. Communism is the worst possible government for the people; for evidence, look at EVERY communist government in history (true, other governments are abusive but a large majority of democracies praise human rights).

7. Democracy and capitalism coincide. He who has the greatest degree of freedom in government also has the greatest degree of freedom in the market.

8. Give me one instance of America killing 6 million people in a brutal act of genocide.

9. The Patriot Act only harms those who seek to do harm to others. It has NO effect on law-abiding citizens.

10. Provide evidence that we are the greatest producer of torture tools.

11. We have never tortured prisoners there to death; we "abused" them (keep in mind, this was a separate incident and does NOT reflect American values).

12. In the government, we have a thing called classified information. It is information that, if leaked, jeopardizes US security. And, what a surprise, after those photos are published an American is beheaded.
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Old 05-29-2004, 08:46 PM
Demosthenes Demosthenes is offline
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Default I can almost....

agree with you Maverick. It;s just the Patriot Act could be used in very evil ways. All the gov't has to say is they believe you are doing something wrong and they can put you away w/o ever charging you, letting you talk to a lawyer. the patriot could be used to take our all of our civil liberties w/o ever being found guilty of a crime. that is dangerous and wrong. Communism, you make points in yuor post that generalizes what Americans are and think. You just can't do that. We are a complicated and diverse peole with many different beliefs, so don't judge us with one broad statement.

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Old 05-29-2004, 09:41 PM
Maverick453 Maverick453 is offline
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Default Won't happen

True, the government can do that. However, I trust them to do the right thing- remember, they are trying to get reelected. Summary arrest is bad PR.
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Old 05-30-2004, 12:00 AM
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Default Weak understanding of the U.S.

True, the poster of the original message shows weak understanding of the U.S. culture and politics. Which is not to say that we do not have problems. I do not know which country the poster comes from, but I am sure that the problems in that country are far more serious than the ones that were facing. The United States has shown resiliency and the capability to overcome problems in the past, and we will do it in the future.

As far as Communism, I believe that debate has been settled in the late '80s. It would be stupid to revisit that old debate now, when we got far more serious issues to deal with.
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Old 05-30-2004, 01:38 PM
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Default o

2. You are including mexico and spain haha, also ww1&2 - you were dragged in kicking and screaming, you tried to stay out of them as long as possible until you were forced in.

3. The majority is stupid.

8. Indians ehh? whatever happened to them i wonder!

11.Actions of american soldiers are representitive of american values, as the soldiers represent american society.

It wasn't a 'few bad apples' anyway, Rumsfield, bush were fully aware what was going on, as it is intelligance protocal to have MP's rough up prisoners poir to interrigation.

POW's in Iraq & afgan have been killed. 36 in Iraq alone.

12. So what you are saying is that no-one in Nazi-Germany should have spoke out about the extermination of jews as it was classified!!!!

-also he would have been killed anyway, they just happened to attach that reason to it as that prison story happened to be in the papers.
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Old 05-30-2004, 07:41 PM
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Default Wrong

First point, capitalism didn't exist until Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations in 1776 and was not truly practiced until America was established in 1783.

Second, before the war approximately two-thirds of Americans supported military action against Saddam.

Third, we do not simply "invade countries we know we will win against." In the Revolutionary War, the we took on the most powerful nation in the world at the time. In the World Wars, we fought an incredibly powerful Germany- I guarantee nobody was entirely sure of our victory. (Besides, that is a ridiculous point- why would we commit soldiers if we thought we would lose?).

Fourth, the Statue of Liberty does stand for liberty. However, liberty and liberalism are ENTIRELY different things.

Fifth, give me a capitalist government and explain why it is bad, and give me a communist government and explain why it is good (granted- there are bad capitalist governments but their problems do not stem from capitalism).

Sixth, the thought police prevented any dissent and stifled free thought. However, the Patriot Act simply prevents harmful actions against American citizens.

Seventh, which Japanese POW ruler did we kill? I know we killed POW's, but not by torture (and these killings do not reflect the American spirit).

Eighth, yes, I agree with classified information. For example, would you support releasing battle plans to our enemies?

Ninth, in both World Wars America was fighting isolationist sentiment at home. True, in the the first war the government was isolationist. However, in the second war, outside forces (such as the America First Committee) prevented FDR from acting on his intuition and entering the war. Also, the fact that we entered late does not change the fact that we turned the tides of both wars and defeated powerful nations.

Tenth, anyone who mistrusts the people enough to call them stupid is not fit to make policy in a democratic nation.

Eleventh, most Indians killed by America died from disease, not intentional action. However, you also forget that the Indians committed equally atrocious acts against innocent American citizens (I know this does not justify our actions, but helps with historical context).

Twelfth, you cannot say a few American soldiers represent American society. I would NEVER do the things they did (and almost 100% of Americans would agree)...how do they represent me? Just as fanatical Muslims do not represent the religion of Islam, a few rogue soldiers do not represent American society. Your non-sequiter logic is clearly flawed.

Thirteenth, you have NO proof that this sanctioning goes up to Bush and Rumsfeld...they may have known about it, but once they did, THEY BEGAN INVESTIGATING WITH THE INTENT OF PRESSING CHARGES.

Fourteenth, I want to see your evidence for the "36 POW's we have killed in Iraq alone."

Fifteenth, classified information under a fascist government is entirely different than classified information in America. We classify information to protect American lives and property. However, fascist governments classify information for the pure self-interests of their dictators. Besides, how can you compare the humiliation of a few prisoners to the genocide of 6 million Jews?
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:53 AM
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Default fdb

"Eleventh, most Indians killed by America died from disease, not intentional action. However, you also forget that the Indians committed equally atrocious acts against innocent American citizens."

-They gave

Twelfth, you cannot say a few American soldiers represent American society. I would NEVER do the things they did (and almost 100% of Americans would agree)...how do they represent me? Just as fanatical Muslims do not represent the religion of Islam, a few rogue soldiers do not represent American society. Your non-sequiter logic is clearly flawed.

- Soldiers come from american society. Senitors come from the society and represnt the people. So if soldiers come from the society, then they like senators must represent the people.

Thirteenth, you have NO proof that this sanctioning goes up to Bush and Rumsfeld...they may have known about it, but once they did, THEY BEGAN INVESTIGATING WITH THE INTENT OF PRESSING CHARGES.

-No, no i dont. However it's standard practice done for decades, they obviously knew.

Fifteenth, classified information under a fascist government is entirely different than classified information in America. We classify information to protect American lives and property. However, fascist governments classify information for the pure self-interests of their dictators. Besides, how can you compare the humiliation of a few prisoners to the genocide of 6 million

- I'm sure the Nazis didn't think they were a fascist government either!
-I'm not comparing the act Im comparing the fact that it wasn't security it was wroung doing. You are claiming it as security in the exact same way the nazis would of claimed the extermination of jews, if leaked jeopardizes nazisecurity!
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Old 06-02-2004, 01:59 PM
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Default Dearie me

1. Capitalism has been practiced for millenniums. Just because it had't been written down it doesn't mean it didn't exist. Your telling me Romans wern't capitalist?

2. If they did then it was because the media tricked U.S. citizens. Which isn't that hard to do.

3. OK that is a stupid point. But i don't see why Iraq was called war. More people have been killed Iraq after the war ended than during.

4. No there not. Liberty is freedom and having rights. Liberalism trys to give people freedom and rights.

5. OK then how about Iraq for a bad capitalist society, I'm sure you can give me more points on why it's bad than i can give you. China, rapidly improving economy and living standards improving constantly.

6. The thought police arrested people who were breaking the law. If you didn't brake the law then you had no reason to fear the thought police. It meant better policing at the expense of freedom. Now explain, how is this different from the Patriot act?

7. I think he's called the emperor, you hung him for war crimes. I'd call being hung torture.

8. Yeah but if this info is bugging all phones in the U.S. you'd like the info to be leaked, wouldn't you?

9. If you'd entered at the start imagine how many allied lives you would have saved.
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