Even still, that assertion doesn't prove their ideas about war were incorrect.

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. "You have found the secret message. Do you have too much time on your hands? ...Let it go."

It also doesnt mean I should assume they were correct...which is what the original post is asking us to do.

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From an article about the Woman's Rights Movement in the US, there is one quote:

http://www.ioba.org/newsletter/V9/suffrage10-02.html

I was always under the impression that they did exclude women from voting, but this article claims otherwise. Take it or leave it, I have yet to verify its accuracy, but it is interesting nonetheless.

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The views expressed in the above post are not necessarily those of Joker and/or any of his affiliates.

. "You have found the secret message. Do you have too much time on your hands? ...Let it go."

The fact that you had to dig to find even that says all that needs to be said. The existing evidence makes it obvious that they did not see black people as equals (slave or not), nevermind white women.

A lot of modern Americans want to inflate the Founding Fathers beyond what they really were. It is a form of historical revisionism.


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Then attack the specific quotes I posted and stop throwing up Straw Men.

Explain how my response is a straw man.

You are trying to claim they have some great credibility they do not have. I provided examples to illustrate why they do not have this credibility.

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It's a Straw Man because the issue is their views on WAR, not on SLAVERY. Regardless, WAR and SLAVERY are not their only views - they have recorded views on HUNDREDS of subjects. So, please, be intellectually honest here.

The issue isn't credibility. I'd say they have credibility because they took on the greatest empire on earth at the time, and defeated them. Then they created the most liberty/freedom-oriented government in the history of humankind. THAT gives them credibility, on all political issues.

So, I ask again, if you disagree with their views on war, please point out specifically where you think their reasoning is flawed.

The slavery reference is relevant to your core argument, which is that we should assume that their opinions were correct.

And were doubtlessly wrong on many more than just slavery and women's rights. And war.

You made it an issue in your original post by implication.

...with help. That too has been greatly exaggerated. I am a nationalist and even I have to admit that.

I wonder if those slaves knew how lucky they were to be living under such a "liberty/freedom-oriented" government.

They had natural barriers to rely upon that we cannot rely upon in modern times. Our wars are far more immediate and dire than their's were. They did not have to deal with things like nuclear weapons. The consequences for inaction are far more dire for us than they were for them.

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No, that's not my core argument. I don't assume they're correct. I read those quotes and they're logical and rational. That's why I KNOW they're correct - not because of WHO said them. The reason I post them is because Republicans usually try and portray themselves as "carrying the torch" for the Founders. We can clearly see here that their foreign policy objectives are quite different.

Well, if credibility is an issue, why don't you give us your credentials? Ever take on an empire and create a new government? Ever been elected President? Are you in any history books or the encyclopedia?

Again, I didn't say they were perfect. Considering since pretty much every other country in the world allowed slavery at the time, at least they gave most of the people in their country true freedom under Natural Law.

Yeah, we're a threat to be invaded at any time... LOL. Those natural boundaries are still fairly effective if you ask me. What Nation State has tried to invade us in the last 100 years?

And you Neocons still desperately want to portray us as defenseless even though we have enough nuclear weapons to nuke every square inch of every country on earth. No Nation State wants a war with us. They know the consequences of such would be "immediate" and "dire".

We're talking about principles, not technology. Do we forget about 2+2=4 just because someone comes up with E=MC2? No.

If you'll read their quotes closer, and also study their views on militias and standing armies, I think you'll see that they don't advocate "inaction."

Also, if you think the consequences of inaction are indeed "far more dire" - are you over there fighting right now? Or are you personally "inactive" while allowing others to be active in your place?

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If you say so. Thats what it sounds like to me.

Ah...so because they agree with you, they must be correct. Gotcha.

I certainly dont. I mostly have contempt for the past in general. They did not know as much then as we know now.

Their situation was also quite different. They were not a world superpower. Did not have to deal with nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. Did not have to deal with terrorism on the scale that we do.

They could afford to be isolationist. We cannot.

Because I am not the one asking you to simply take my word for it that a given position is correct.

Lots of people fit those criteria and were still wrong about stuff. Not sure where you got the idea people who create new governments, or take on empires, or appear in encyclopedias are infallible.

B...b...but how could they not be perfect? After all, they created a new government! They took on an Empire! They even appear in all our encyclopedias!

Yeah, lets just ignore the blacks and focus on the real people eh?

You believe invasion is the only threat?

The cold war wasnt about invasion.

MAD only works if the other side cares about being retaliated against. How do you nuke a terrorist group? Your naivete is disturbing.

They dont have to win a war with us to damage us.

Nuclear weapons drastically changed the nature of warfare. The consequences are far greater for us than they were for them. They never had to contemplate the idea of an entire city or even their enitre nation being wiped out in a matter of minutes.

Isolationism is inaction.

Are you trying to argue that no one should have an opinion on defense unless they are in the active military?

Are you against crime? If so, why are you not out on the streets fighting it right now? Are you going to be personally inactive while the cops are risking their lives being active in your place?



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