Political Forum
     

Go Back   Political Forum > General Political Chat > Political Opinions & Beliefs
Workers of the World Unite! Welcome Communists&Socialists! Workers of the World Unite! Welcome Communists&Socialists!
Register FAQ Members List Quizzes Radio and TV Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Closed Thread
Page 14 of 14 « First < 41213 14
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #131 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 01:39 PM
spetsnaz spetsnaz is offline
Observer
  
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 18
spetsnaz is on a distinguished road
Credits: 425
Default disastrous?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gian55";p=&quot View Post
Can one of you please explain why some still advocate communism even after history has proven it disastrous?
Personally, because I read a little www.exile.ru and started wondering. I think it's only "disastrous" depending from which side you look at it. Capitalism has proven a lot more "disastrous" for Russia and the other former Soviet republics.

Here's some videos from Pyongyang I found:
http://cheaten.octeq.com/upload/dprk...ngyang%201.asf

http://cheaten.octeq.com/upload/dprk...ngyang%202.asf

http://cheaten.octeq.com/upload/dprk...ngyang%203.asf

http://cheaten.octeq.com/upload/dprk...0Il%20Sung.ram

http://cheaten.octeq.com/upload/dprk/supreme.asf

Does North Korea still seem like a hellhole to you?

Now, tell me why do you suppose the US keeps tightening sanctions on Cuba? Do they fear the Cuban cigars?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...sanctions_dc_1

I hope to visit Cuba in a year or two to see it for myself, by the way.
Sponsored Links
Red Cross - Donate Today    Save the Rainforest
  #132 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 01:53 PM
spetsnaz spetsnaz is offline
Observer
  
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 18
spetsnaz is on a distinguished road
Credits: 425
Default "totalitarian"
Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinX";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmann";p=&quot View Post
and absolute power corrupts absolutely. it doesn't mean it wasn't qa good idea. The wrong people got a hold of it....Much like what's happening here in the US
...in communist societies, the "wrong people" always seem to get a hold of the power. The result: a tyrannical government... nothing like the U.S.
People are a result of conditions. The leaders of USSR are no exception. And you, from childhood, have been conditioned to associate guilt with anything that fits someones criteria for a "totalitarian government". Now, when you say "nothing like the US", do you ignore the red scare in the US, and the round-up of "communists"?
  #133 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 01:58 PM
spetsnaz spetsnaz is offline
Observer
  
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 18
spetsnaz is on a distinguished road
Credits: 425
Default support?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SporkLord";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gian55";p=&quot View Post
Can one of you please explain why some still advocate communism even after history has proven it disastrous?
I'm guessing that they will plead the "they weren't real communists, unlike us" argument. But the second some one voices their support of the USSR, they lost my support.
Support? Hah! As if your "support" would decide the outcome of a debate. The truth isn't dependant on who supports it or not. No, my friend, the truth can only be found in science and reasoning.

Agh... now I'm starting to sound like Mr. Krutov.
  #134 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 02:17 PM
pinniped pinniped is offline
Analyst
  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,838
pinniped is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,567
Default all failure
the history of socialism is so full of blatant failure that how anyone can look at that and not try to ascertain why is beyond me.
  #135 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 02:35 PM
spetsnaz spetsnaz is offline
Observer
  
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 18
spetsnaz is on a distinguished road
Credits: 425
Default ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinniped";p=&quot View Post
the history of socialism is so full of blatant failure that how anyone can look at that and not try to ascertain why is beyond me.
I see your words but all I know is ignorance. [/sarcasm]
  #136 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 03:51 PM
Warpath Warpath is offline
Correspondent
  
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 284
Warpath is on a distinguished road
Credits: 1,611
Default I agree Spet.... but you seem to have missed my point.
Actually spet... what I was describing was a "communitarian" government just like I said. A democracy can be either a direct illiberal (classical sense) majoritarian system or a limited system, much like any electoral type. If it is limited, it is not communitarian because it places restrictions on the power of the majority... much like the bill of rights does for the U.S. However, if there is no limit on the majority, then it is communitarian, because it believes that the community (or a majority of people) has a monopoly on truth, and therefore the community can do whatever it wants no matter what. If the community wants genocide.... it gets it. There's no check on the community. As long as checks exist it is not communitarian. Sure democracy can be communitarian, but only if it looses its value of individual rights and freedom. But that really has nothing to do with this because I was pointing out not that democracy is communitarian, but that communism is communitarian, and unlike democracy.... communism is always communitarian, not just sometimes. Please do not confuse "democracy" with "freedom". You can have one without the other. Communism always elevates the community above the individual, and it does so by its very definition. This is not to say that democracy can't be communitarian.... in fact since communism can be democratic, it follows that there has to be instances when democracy can be communitarian. But you seem to have entirely missed my point.
  #137 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 07:51 PM
trot trot is offline
Correspondent
  
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 351
trot is on a distinguished road
Credits: 1,740
Default Back again
Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinX";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
Firstly, the Soviet Union produced outstanding people in all areas, I know very little about Nth Korea so can't comment.
This is true. But I wonder how many more it suppressed? It's just that you happened to use Van Gogh as your example, and I couldn't imagine poor Vincent surviving longer than a nanosecond in Soviet Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
However I have never considered the Soviet Union to be a socialist democracy. In fact for most of it's existence it was a brutal totalitarian dictatorship that murdered millions of good communists and socialists.
I never considered the Soviet Union a socialist democracy either. But it is interesting to note that Lenin's party (before it split into the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks) was called the Russian Social Democratic Labor party. One concept was promised, another was delivered. And you must admit, it does seem to be the pattern that communist governments transform into brutal totalitarian regimes. I submit that this by itself reveals a fatal flaw in Marxist theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
A Stalinist structure can never be anything but.
Glad to hear you say this. It seems that some (especially the young) are starting to have romantic visions of the hammer and sickle, and are even reading bizarre, revisionist histories of Stalin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
However As an ideological Fabian socialist I do not believe that the road to socialism can be truly achieved without first enduring capitalism. Marx even suggested as much.
I must admit I knew nothing about the Fabian Society. After your reference, I did a little research on the Internet - very interesting. H.G. Wells? I had no idea. Are you a member of the Australian Fabian Society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
And I do accept that the first world capitalist societies that you and I live in have provided standards of living and freedoms hitherto thought impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
In short if capitalism is the most efficient social system we have (both from an equity and environmental point of view) then I have have yet to see it at it's best.
I moved these two statements next to each other because I thought they presented an interesting contrast. You admit that capitalism has provided great freedoms and a high standard of living, but say you have not seen it at its best?

Capitalism may not promise a utopia, but even at its worst, it in no way approaches the nightmares of communism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
I agree we need to embrace a system of rational self interest but does that mean that the means of production and the raw materials must always be in the hands of individuals.
Who else? Governments? A strange thing I've noticed on this discussion board is that those to the left (and I make no reference to yourself in this regard) show a great distrust of governments in general, and tend to be very critical of them, and yet for some reason they also want to seem to turn control of everything over to these same inadequate organizations that they do not trust. Someone will have to explain this to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trot";p=&quot View Post
My view is that eventually the have not's will force the issue. Won't be in my time though.

Shame really because I would look ok in a Commissar's uniform.
I agree. The have-nots will force the issue - the lure of "something for nothing" will prove too strong. It will probably be in my lifetime.

Shame really because, capitalist pig that I am, I probably won't look nearly as good in front of a firing squad.
I used to be a member of the Fabians but when I left the city and went to live in the bush I couldn't attend meetings.

I don't think that totalitarian dictatorship needs to be the end result of the implementation of a socialist economy, that has occurred because of the manner of how that system was brought about (eg violent revolution) and the constant counter-attacks of the "reactionary" forces. That is why socialism will only succeed where it comes about because of economic evolution nor economic revolution.

Sadly this concept is not exciting enough for the youthful socialists among us.

It is still to early to have a objective historical review of the Stalin era and of the Soviet Union. I have the view that it was a failed experiment but even so there where some successes.

Cuba for all it's faults should not be judged against the US but against other like countries in the area such as Jamaica etc.

I don't have an inherent dislike of governments because I believe a society ends up with a government that usually reflects the community it comes from, both good and bad. Of course, as with most things, there are exceptions to this rule

My statements re the capitalist societies seem contradictory but they are not, first world countries have great wealth (and freedom) but it can only be sustained at the cost of the third world and the environment.

Global capitalism has the opportunity to be such a force for good if it chooses to be. But I can't see how a system that bases itself on personal greed as a motivating force will be able to fulfill that promise. An alternative economic system will eventually become a necessity for survival of the planet not simply as an experiment in ideology.


Cheers,

Trot
  #138 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2004, 08:13 PM
truebrit truebrit is offline
Guru
  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,277
truebrit is on a distinguished road
Credits: 12,633
Default I am locking this thread.
Please feel free to start another thread on the same lines, this one was become a little too lengthy and all of the meandering makes it hard to follow.

Thanks.
__________________
The last time this country mixed politics with religion, people got burned at the stake.
Closed Thread
Page 14 of 14 « First < 41213 14

Bookmarks

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

Sponsored Links

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:49 PM.

Political Forum Index RSS Feeds - Contact Us - Political Forum Index - Archive - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0
Template-Modifikationen durch TMS
vBCredits v1.3 ©2007 by Darkwaltz4
Advertisement System V2.1 By   Branden