yeah sure, go back to the Kerry thread.

That is the problem with talking about 'Great' men and women. It is always subjective.

Was Rhodes great? He did a lot to build the Empire. His financial empire is still very strong. The infrastructure he build is still of great value to this country.

Do I think he was great? He was an exploiting Jingolist who caused the death of thousands of people by insitgating war in this country. He was a unforgiving racist and generaly not a nice man.

So no, I would not call him a great man.

What I meant in my post is that all people have faults, even 'great' men. But they manage t overcome their shortcommings and still achieve great things, while people like me get hinderd by our faults.

I can agree with your thoughts on Julius Nyere and Jomo Kenyatta, although both had their faults and some, uhm, interesting views on democracy in Africa.

The greatest proof that all 'great' people have faults - Nelson Mandela. He did safe my country and did much for us. But still - he was a terrostist (freedom fighter) who did order bombs to be planted that killed inocent civilians.


But yeah, I call him great.

Al subjective, isn't it?

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“The subject no longer has to be mentioned by name. Someone is sick. Someone else is feeling better now. A friend has just gone back into the hospital. Another has died. The unspoken name, of course, is AIDS.”
“From the point of view of the pharmaceutical industry, the AIDS problem has already been solved. After all, we already have a drug which can be sold at the incredible price of $8, 000 an annual dose, and which has the added virtue of not diminishing the market by actually curing anyone.”

I admit I fed you the Rhodes reference just to get your reaction, in the context of the subject under discussion. Call it teasing; nothing malignant intended there.

I agree the views on democracy by both Nyere and Kenyatta were---"interesting." But as I understand the 1970s through 1990s, much of African progress came about AGAINST the odds. At least both men were able to resist the widespread problems in Sudan and similar areas. Yes, it was socialism they offered---probably a purerer form than in Cuba. But at least the country did not degrade under that system (or so I thought, watching the news).

Even today I get the impression that for Tanzania in particular and Kenya a somewhat close second, it all began to look like a case of "not-degraded-as-bad-as-it-could-be." That's actually progress, if you compare that to some of the harsher books written about the OAS, or read up on thugs like Idi Amin.

As for South Africa, it's unfortunate that Winnie Mandela appears to have lowered herself to a mere terrorist, after her husband's death. That's the impression I get reading about her ordering killings of her opponents. I appreciate your comment about Nelson's political beliefs. He is widely seen here as a communist, and second as a "freedom fighter."

Would socialism work in South Africa, with its so-called DeBeers Economy? Under black rule, has the South African government been successful in improving life for the average citizen?

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Delivering tasty bite-sized Clues to liberals since 1965.

OMG!!! Nelson Mandela is dead!? We did not notice! hehehe. Nah, he is just really old, but far as I have it, they ar just divorced.

I think you meant his imprisonment.

But Let's start at the top. Yeah, I sort of got it that you where having a go at me with Rhodes, and being a half Brit, I should maybe half like him, hehehehe


Tanzania and Kenya are two of Africa's more successful stories, this is true. Tanzania is a great surprise, Federal systems have as a rule failed in Africa (Look at Nigeria who is constantly on the brink of civil war), so it is quite nice to see this federation working.

Kenya is truly struggling under corruption, and it is slowly destroying that country. And is still rebuilding after the very bad rule of Daniel arab Moi.

Now your truly interesting questions about SA.

It is true and known here that I am a Democratic Socialist, and a supporter of our party that follows this system, the Independent Democrats. (oh, by the way, I almost forgot about that term, De Beers economy, and not quite accurate in describing SA's economy anymore, to be honest)

Our government, against the fears from the whites, the fears from the world and the wishes of it's own supporters, have followed a neo-liberal economic policy. The good thing is, yes, our economy is maintaining a growth rate of about 4% to 5%. The economy is stable, interest rates lowest it's been in decades, inflation under control and the exchange rate moderately good (even a bit too strong maybe, but it did fall back a bit the last two months). The bad side is, the poor is remaining poor, economic growth is not translating into jobs, and privatization has not improved service, but has made it more expensive.

Nelson Mandela followed a more socialist approach, but his successor, President Thabo Mbeki is a staunch Neo-Liberal.

Under Nelson Mandela, for instance, 3 million people who did not have direct access to water, got it in their own homes. The government still uses this number, and the number of taps installed every month is an impressive achievement. What government fails to mention is that of the original 3 million people receiving water in their homes, only about one million still has them, as the rest can not pay the new privatized inflated rates for water delivery. Same with electricity and telephones.

A form of Socialism (with out nasalization, but with taxes of companies and the rich) migth work, in my opinion in SA. Anger and resentment is growing since it is only companies that is seeing the economic growth, and the companies are still in the hands of the white elite (like my father...) Something will have to be done soon, if the current crisis in crime and murder is going to be turned around.

Overall, for their economic achievement, I would give the government 65%, or maybe even 70% But for it's social policies an even 50% is appropriate. (strangely enough, the money is there, we just had our mid-year budget, and our Department of Social Development has underspent with ZAR 50 million rand so far!!!!)

And, a last remark on the economy here, the traditional BIG companies (Anglo-American, De Beers, Rembrandt) have lost most of their domination of the local economy. Also mining is no longer even being close to being the biggest sector of the economy here.


Then, about Nelson Mandela, seeing him as a communist is wrong. He was a member of the Communist party, but the reason was because the ANC, the local trade union dederation (COSATU) and the Communist Party formed an Alliance to fight apartheid, and it was expected for the leaders of the 3 groups to be members of the other two too. MAndela often critised, even in the Apartheid years, the alliance with the CP, and never shown any signs of following communist policies. The local Nationalist government in the apartheid years did always show him as a Communist, as part of the propaganda of fear they used to rule this country, and also to maintain the support from Thatcher and Reagan.

Anyway, this thesis is too long!!!
AH

__________________
“The subject no longer has to be mentioned by name. Someone is sick. Someone else is feeling better now. A friend has just gone back into the hospital. Another has died. The unspoken name, of course, is AIDS.”
“From the point of view of the pharmaceutical industry, the AIDS problem has already been solved. After all, we already have a drug which can be sold at the incredible price of $8, 000 an annual dose, and which has the added virtue of not diminishing the market by actually curing anyone.”

"As for South Africa, it's unfortunate that Winnie Mandela appears to have lowered herself to a mere terrorist, after her husband's death."

man, if you wish a black leader is dead please keep it to yourself. although, I'm sure righty/eup and a few others appreciate your dream.

Shriller = "kook" (one of barney's / godzook's favorite terms)

Yes, as mentioned above, Nelson Mandela (a member of the communist party, for any reason) spent a long time in prison. Then as I recall his wife took over things and went to jail herself after conviction of plotting to (or actually doing) the assassination of political opponents (singular or plural).

I did have it wrong that Mandela was dead. My post did not WISH the death. Your offensive twisting lie is noted.

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Delivering tasty bite-sized Clues to liberals since 1965.

then righty/eup will be sad to hear that.

I have taken enough of your insults recently to now say I am being targeted by you in a deliberate campaign which violates the rules of this forum. I am asking the moderators to review your posts, and accept my recommendation you be suspended for 30 days to cool off. Enough of this nonsense.

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Delivering tasty bite-sized Clues to liberals since 1965.

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"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

if your post has lies (claiming the death of someone you obviously don't agree with IS a huge lie)

then you have to deal with it and not take it personally. A HUGE lie like that NEGATES your whole argument.

I'm getting a little tired of the "pretend" posts from Barney but you don't see me crying to the mods about those posts. I just deal with it and point it out like I did with yours.