Ok, the people of the group I showed you who was raised as Islams but now do
not believe in Islam have told me in my area to visit Islam mosques and show them
this:
The last two chapters of the Qur’an are chapter 5 and chapter 9, in their correct chronological order, Allah’s Last Call. The opinions of scholars differ over which is the last chapter, but they both contain the final orders for all Muslims. These laws abrogate, cancel ALL the earlier, ‘peaceful and tolerant’ verses of the Qur’an. These final and absolute orders demand Jihad, holy war against all non-Muslims forever. All non-Muslims must be killed, enslaved and controlled by Muslims. Islam must rule the world. Islam is in fact a License to Kill in the name of Allah. Holy War is the holy law of Islam. This unique law called Jihad gives all Muslims the right to attack and kill non-Muslims, to loot, rape and enslave them, and to rule the world in the name of Allah.

And to asked them to please explain this, do you what to know what I was told by true
Islam believers of that faith??

"It is true for those chapters are our call from Allah. though most Muslims would not kill non-Muslims
it is handed over to the jihads (Holly Worriers) or the Islamic leaders to carry out Allah's call."

The reason why was because Allah says to rule the world in his name.

Lebanon is our most resent example of when this action takes place, when a country is more Islamic
then the other religions it contains, then Allah's call is to carried out.

All this from Islamic groups them self as proof, also I give credit to those who pointed me to the info
and the knowlage I needed to ask the right questions to get to the real truth.
the Muslims who gave up Islam helped me in my search for the truth.

Just do what I have done, if you don't your lazy and foolish, and you refuse to see.
I rest my case.

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Well then you will be satisfied with your case not being good enough to get beyond reasonable doubt. The jury is still hung.
Your argument is one of collective judgement. Because you have anecdotal knowledge of what some ex-Muslims and some who remain Muslims say... I must ignore my own anecdotal evidence of what other Muslims say who are reformists or moderates? Even if what you hear represents most, you cannot be serious to claim that those who are not represented by that are to be ignored, shut out, lumped in with the majority.

What I find to be the most repulsive argument is when people call those Muslims who truly believe their religion to be one of peace either liars or ignorant. Exactly what does that accomplish? Maybe it helps me that I don't believe any religious viewpoint to be anymore ignorant or enlightened than another, regardless of what a book says.
Whether or not they are the "true believers", I think it is best to SUPPORT those Muslims who are reformers and moderates rather than to ATTACK them as being part of the enemy or of being untrue to themselves (which is even more ridiculous, as this is to say "You should be with the enemy." ^#$# retarded argument, I swear- it's like people are attempting to strengthen the enemy).
It sounds to me that half the people who are so terrified by Islamicism that they attack all of the Muslim world are trying to do the preaching in favor of the enemy! Listen to yourself. You are calling the only people who actually have a snowball's chance in Hell of reforming Islam LIARS and CHARLETANS. You insult the good guys more than the bad guys!

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

I don't suppose, Proof, that you have a credible source for the claim that Chapters 5 and 9 (out of 114) are the actual last chapters, and mean what you claim they mean?

I'll wait, but I'm not holding my breath.

__________________
Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

I don't suppose you even know how to use Google Even though you found/moderate this message board.

Always amazed people Never even are willing/are bright enough to spend 60 seconds before posting.

SO.... for a reference as to the first part of his claim...
I typed into Google chapters 5 and 9 last chapters koran
and the second entry:

Continuing from that same link:

Instead of holding you breath, use your brain.

Never mind that it is considered polite to provide actual reference links when making a claim, I did Google something quite similar to that, but didn't come up with that hit even if the first three pages. Thanks for the link, sans snarkiness.

To the link:

The site self-identifies as being "created by ex-Muslims to warn people about Islam." No agenda there....

It then constructs a tortured chronology for the Koran based on hadiths and other commentary, even though it notes that "there is no standard and accepted chronology of the Koran."

So how they then can claim that Chapters 5 and 9 are the last chapters in any definitive sense is beyond me.

Of course, there is great dispute over what constitutes a clear "abrogation" and what it means, not to mention several classes of abrogation.
http://www.ummah.com/forum/archive/i.../t-103174.html

Some schools of Muslim thought, in fact, believe there are *no* clear abrogations, because all such abrogations must be clearly traceable to the Prophet or his Companions. As my link notes:

Likewise. There is no one Islam, just as there is no one Christianity. Islam is in fact even more chaotic and confused than Christianity, because while Christians have tended to hold up only the Bible as authoritative, various sects of Islam have grown to revere various (and contradictory) hadiths, sunnas and other commentary as well as the Koran. Even more so than with the Bible, you can pretty much find anything you want in that huge mess.

Can you find Islamic sects that interpret the Koran the way your link does? Of course. Does that indict Islam as a whole? No. Just like Christians object to critics who point out the myriad violent and just plain mean passages in the Bible.

__________________
Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

JavaBlack,
You missed my main point, I got my info from Muslims who dropped the religion.
But they pointed me to real Muslim Mosques in my area to ask them, it was those
who still are of Islam faith that told me more about the chapters I inquired about
when pressed for details, they then come out with the rest of the story. the truth.

And it was the same as what I was told before I asked practicing Islams.

Just do as I have done, but press them for details. they will explain. and I am
talking about real Muslims who have not given up Islam.

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Your claim is still that because X Muslims have provided you with this X + Y Muslims are all the same way... including the Muslims who will go so far as to claim attempts to kill nonbelievers are evil and against Islam.
Like Raytri says, there are a lot of different people out there under the umbrella of Islam. A religion is ultimately shaped by its believers not by its texts. So right now Islam is a big mess and the forces of orthodoxy are winning.
That does not invalidate the works of those that stand against the orthodoxy.

Taking anecdotal knowledge and applying it across an entire spectrum of people is lazy thought. The truth is that it is much more complex than can be explained by a few believers and nonbelievers with agendas. The fact remains that there are exceptions, even if what you claim is the rule. Exceptions, even if small in number, mean that the correlation is not destiny.
At one time scientific theory was embraced by a slim minority.

And that is giving you the benefit of the doubt that your example represents the majority.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

As I said earlier, the two people here are picking two chapters out of 114 chapters.
I'm curious as to what the other 112 chapters say.
The Christian Bible talks about Children rising up against their parents and killing them in the "Last Days."
Is that a Christian Calling for youth to rise up and kill their parents?
Do you see how stupid it is to pick apart a couple of chapters of another religions book and then assume all Muslims believe those 2 chapters?

These two individuals simply hate all Muslims but justify their hatred with two out of 114 chapters.
How is that any different that why the some Muslims hate Americans?
How can one side justify their hatred and not see the same type of justification on the other side of the story.

It's also hypocritical for Americans to use Terrorists in Afghanistan when there were fighting the Russians and then call the same groups enemies when it comes back to bite them.
America did the exact same thing with Saddam.
They back him and supported him when they needed an Alley against Iran.
I love it when Americans try and deny, ignore or justify those FACTS!
They used Muslims to further their agendas when it suits them.
If all Muslims are suppose to be the same and believe the last two chapters, why are Americans in Iraq fighting side by side with some Muslims and killing other Muslims.
The Muslims they are fighting side by side with have the exact same last two chapters in their religious book.
How do you justify that?
If Iraqi men that are "on the side of the Americans" are reading and believing the same religious book as the terrorist, how do you explain away that?
Do those Iraqis tear out the last two chapters?
Please explain since the two people that hate muslims and think all muslims believe those two chapters seem to be more educated that the rest of us ignorant "liberals."

It's considered polite/necessary if you are citing someone else, not if you are speaking from personal knowledge- Unless challenged- you provide them. I did for the original claimant in this case.

You could Have come back with equal knowledge and no links with a counterclaim If you were as conversant on the topic as he.
As clearly he was. You don't just make up out of thin air the things he said.

Muslim and non-Muslim experts/Scholars were cited. We were NOT counting on the words of ex-muslims in any case.
Though if we were I consider them one of the best educated sources, knowing both sides.

As to the the rest of what you posted- it IS debatable as you say- but proof-hunters assertions remains true, and the Literal interpretation of the Koran remains Mainstream - Unlike Christianity.

And for that reason, as I've said here and elsewhere countless times, it's really not nearly as important to compare violence in Holy Books (like the OT) because only one religion is in great majority still Literalist to theirs.
Israel doesn't have 'an eye for an eye' justice; No Death Penalty, while many muslim countries are killing apostates, cutting of Limbs, stoning for adultery, executing gays, etc.
.

That is an argument that the content itself is not what's important, but the current social phase of the religion. Which IMO is an argument to support the moderates and reformists rather than advocate the complete vilification of all who believe in the religion.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III