I do support and post their reformers like Manji, Nomani, Hamid, Warraq, etc, and those willing to have a "secular Islam". (Google the recent Secular Islam conference in Jacksonville Fl, viewed with Disdain throughout the Muslim world).

Alas Muslims do NOT want reform and consider secularism closer to Apostasy than anything else... and reformers Lives are in danger.

They had a reformation in the 19th century. It's called Wahabism. It's what it was meant to be, closer to the Koran's original intent.
So be it.

JavaBlack,

OK, Lets apply that train of thought, I would have to conclude that only here in America
do we then find, Muslims who believe the call and would practice it, yet over in the Middle
East they don't, and yet all the carnage is where?

Also they being true Muslims explain to me that you are ether Muslim or Jihad, but before you
are jihad, you where Muslim. also Jihad's are Muslims who took the calling.

In our form of thinking this is like, your an American, yet you can join the call to defend your
country, so you become a soldier. I was also then told that all the jihad's we see were the
brave of the Muslim world, which Allah has called.

And that only those who took the calling know if Allah called them, the Muslims here in America
say they have not been called, but do believe that others in the home lands have been.
and they can not speak out against Allah if these true Brave Muslims have been called by
Allah. For they would surly anger Allah.

So only in America do we find Muslims who believe in this?????

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Reverse logic. I do not concludde that only in America is this thought of. I reject that across the world your example is the ONLY train of thought. Your argument seems to be that the train of thought you've discovered is universal.
I've made no claims to any universal Islam nor that any particular thought is exclusive to any particular location.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

You made an assertion about Islam I rebutted countless times to NO answer from you.
NONE.
You didn't answer any of "my own words".

You didn't answer "the words of Muslims" you asked for.

and in this post you object to people citing two chapters of the Koran but "Wonder what's in the rest".

So you made an assertion about Islam not knowing what's in ANY of it!

You had NO Case whatsoever- only the Vaguest/emptiest of PC politics.

I invite you to go back and read 10 or 12 or 20 posts our resident Muslim BORKAN; not made for TV viewers, whose attempt at least was based on Some knowledge/indoctrination, but as I said, was as ill-fated as yours.

.

Is your reasoning because not all Muslims are not Jihads?

cause also do note that Muslims are not allowed to Kill, so if Allah has not called you and you KILL
then you have sinned, and Allah will punish you. so Muslims are not the danger, it's those
who think Allah called, Yet those who did not get the calling, still believe those who claim
to have gotten the calling in their heart from Allah.

This is what you are failing to see, is that not all Muslims will Allah call, yet if one does believe
he was called, then that's where the trouble starts. and this is among the whole group, they use the
same scripture and they all interpet it the same and adhere to it.

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

But it is not destined that this will always be interpreted this way, nor is it true that all Muslims interpret this as such or give it any importance.
Mormons are also allowed to kill if God tells them to. Read the first chapter in the Book of Mormon and you'll see that the protagonist murders and steals because GOD TOLD HIM TO. Now... do you see Mormons committing mass murder? No. Because God doesn't tell them to.
God seems to only speak to loons... and strangely he only gives them reason to do things they were planning to do anyway!
There will always be psychos. The idea is that with a better social structure and more liberal interpretation of the religion, a group might decrease the numbers of such psychos down to the low level we enjoy in the US. Most religions have an implicit "But if God tells you to do it..." clause. It's nothing new.
But that is not what makes people kill. It only rationalizes such killing after the decision has been made to kill.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

But Muslims truly believe Allah dislikes non-believers and we are talking about people
who told me that even if they did not hear the calling, they would not kill me, but turn me
over to those who Allah called.

So now stop for a minute and think what this really means. It means from the time they are
able to learn that they know these things may happen in their time or may not. but would
also believe it, if it did.

So take a large group of these people, hype then up, get them going speak with authority
convince them that through you Allah, is calling them, and I am sure you will get recruits
from even people who are not crazy, because it's not so much if they are crazy as it is that
they are indoctrinated with what I see as a time bomb.

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

All such time bombs have been diffused in the past.
Most Christians would not burn witches themselves but would turn them over to authorities to be burned.
Most Germans would not kill Jews but would turn them over to be killed.

Islam is currently stuck in a medieval tyrannical mode of thought. There is no reason to believe this is permanent. If the Muslim world is to grow or if Muslims are to grow as individuals such philosophies will be thrown away.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

And I believe that also, but the question is how do you
bring this about?

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Now that's a good question. I don't think anyone really knows... sort of like how we really don't know how to spread stable democracy yet.
But the secret lies in undermining the propaganda of hostile forces and amplifying that of moderates... Problem is that this involves making an environment safe for moderates...
I think the real answer is that it will take a long time. But ultimately the heretics like Galileo did manage to defeat the anti-science mysticism of the Church. And ultimately those few kids that stick up for rights and liberal values in the Muslim world will prevail... but it will be slow and bloody.
Our role is harder to define. We can support those that are friendly... but we do not have the clout that insiders do... in fact we are seen as bad by large numbers. This severely limits our ability to do good.
So if we want a bigger role in shaping the future of Islam, we must first find a way to improve the image of the West... and I'm not sure anyone has figured out how to do that yet.
But it might be that our role is limited to defending ourselves and waiting for a time when progressive forces are stronger in the Muslim world.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside