Well, the problem of fixing Iraq, let alone reasoning with Iran, is a task that the
western world will have to undertake wisley, and while Iran would like to take out
Israel, suggests to me that he believes he has heard the calling?.

Hard to know really.

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Iran's a tricky situation. Within Iran are some of the most reformist minds in the Muslim world... but it's democratic institutions are undermined by a tyrannical theocracy and hardliners control... In addition a maverick hardliner group seems to control a major group of the armed forces independent of the government (this would be terrible even if Iran was a democracy).
But there is fighting between hardliner and diplomatic elements within Iran. Empowering the non-hardliners is a must... but once again... how?
To keep the hardliners in line we need to focus on making abundantly clear that the MAD dynamic is in effect. Any assault on Israel, or anyone else for that matter, with nuclear weapons will certainly result in the destruction of Iran... and that needs to be clear.
I really wish we weren't bogged down in Iraq because I think Iran would be easier to pull a working regime change on, mostly by supporting internal elements... but that isn't so when we're busy and going into debt with Iraq.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

It's been about a year now that I have been wishing that Iraq was
done, and finished so that we could focus on Iran. Yet I do believe
that doing something about Iraq now would help stop the flow of
insurgents coming from Iran. Yet I also know that it would be crazy
now after Iraq to even suggest taking on Iran in any form.

We might have had good intentions, but we may have also messed up
our true way out of all this.

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

That was your best reply to my last post?
You did not requote and pick apart any of my last post. LOL
Loosing your debating touch?
LOL I love it.
Let's try it again
Please explain this part of my last post.

"If all Muslims are suppose to be the same and believe the last two chapters, why are Americans in Iraq fighting side by side with some Muslims and killing other Muslims.
The Muslims they are fighting side by side with have the exact same last two chapters in their religious book.
How do you justify that?
If Iraqi men that are "on the side of the Americans" are reading and believing the same religious book as the terrorist, how do you explain away that?
Do those Iraqis tear out the last two chapters?
Please explain since the two people that hate Muslims and think all Muslims believe those two chapters seem to be more educated that the rest of us ignorant "liberals."

So you have NOT talked with an actively practicing Muslim.
You are taking your information from people that left the Muslim faith.
Don't you think they just might be bit bias?
I asked you if you have every shared your views with Muslims NOT ex-Muslims.
You sought out people that would feed your hatred to actively practicing Muslims.
That's like going to the NRA to support your believe in the right to carry guns instead of going to talk with the victims of gun violence.
It's so easy to find people to support your racist beliefs.
It's easy to hate illegal immigrants when you never care enough to actually talk with them and actually "listen" to their words and their side of the story.
It's easy to hate a black man when you never take taken the time to get to know any blank people and surround yourself with "white" friends.
All Racists never get to know the individuals of a race, they just group everyone together under one name like "Muslim, Jew, Christian, Black, Asian, etc."
years ago the KKK killed the blacks just because of the colour of their skin.
You are basing your opinions of Muslims without actually going to a mosque and talking with the people or church leaders.
You go to Ex-Muslims to feed your hatred for the Muslim faith.

What do you mean I did not talk to Muslims, I think you skim posts
so I will help you out again.

When I say Muslims this will mean real practicing Muslims, But if I use X-Muslims
that will mean they left the religion OK? OK, so now I will say it again.

I got my info from X-Muslims who dropped the religion.

But they pointed me to real Muslim Mosques in my area to ask them.


Below this line I am not talking anymore about X_Muslims
************************************************** *************************************

Muslims told me more about the chapters I inquired about when pressed for details,
they then come out with the rest of the story. the truth. And it was the same as what I was
told before I asked practicing Islams.

Just do as I have done, but press them for details. they will explain. and I am
talking about real Muslims who have not given up Islam.

Well? does it make more sence now? No?

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Did those practicing Muslims tell you that they personally believe that all non Muslims should be killed according to those chapters you like to quote.
Did you ask those practicing Muslims what they personally believe?
Did they tell you that they would go out and kill if their god told them too?
You are the one that has grouped all practicing Muslims together and say they are all potential terrorists.
You are the one that says that all Muslims Wat to take over the world and kill all non Muslims.
Is that want the practicing Muslims told you or just the ones that are ex-Muslims?
From what you have told us is just simply that the practicing Muslims have acknowledge that those chapters are in their religious book.
You have not said that they told you that they would do what those verses say.
As I've said, the Christian Bible is full of old testament verses that today's Christians can acknowledge but do not practice.

Again you are the one that has said ALL Muslims are the same in their beliefs.
Are you now saying that their are Muslims (not ex-Muslims) that do not practice or believe those two chapters?
Or did you still believe that ALL "practicing" Muslims believe those two chapters to the point of carrying them out if they felt their God telling them to do it.
My belief if that NOT ALL practicing Muslims believe they are call to some "holy war" against non Muslims.
That link you posted,

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

Clearly stated that they are NOT Muslims anymore so their opinion as to what a "Still active" Muslim believes does not count as facts in the Muslim faith today.
They do not know what is being taught "Today" in the mosques.

Again, please explain why American soldiers are fighting side my side with Iraqis that still strongly believe in the Muslim faith.
Iraqis are not denouncing their long held Muslim beliefs so why is American soldiers dying every week in a war to defend them.
Can you explain that?

You STILL didn't answer ANY of mine but I'll keep answering yours.

Muslims can fight other Muslims alongside Americans or anyone else in whatever Other cause they choose.

Assorted (Iraq and other) Muslims Arabs are killing Iraqi Muslim Arabs for various reasons with or without anyone "side by side".

Iraq and Iran had a War, Iraq and Kuwait, Sudanese Govt is now killing other Muslims (Fur) in Sudan, The Agfhans were having a Civil War when we invaded.
IF we enter on the side of any of these Muslims they would "fight side by side" but NOT because it's us, but because they already have an agenda, be it tribal, national, etc.

How does the fact Sunnis don't like Shias and vice versa, Or some want an Iraqi State and some don't, or some don't want to share rule in that Iraqi State, negate the last two chapters of the Koran?
The Iraqi council, composed of All factions of Iraq, agreed the new Constitution couldn't/wouldn't contradict the Koran.
One thing they could agree on.

Baffled by this piece of fallacious 'logic'.

As to who to listen to, in re several of your previous replies....

Former Muslims can give you both sides.
Current Muslims are giving you 'Dawa'.

To use your Own example...
Would you go to the NRA member to find out whether it's right to carry a Gun? Or would you go to a former NRA member and find out why he left knowing, and being able to present, both sides.
Knowing Why he left might be the most important thing you hear.

I not only know and speak to Muslims I post on their message boards.
I don't suppose you took my suggestion to read our Resident Muslim, BORKAN'S posts.
You remember the/Your string topic.

Actually both... and some nonaffiliated independent researchers as well.
Exes are as biased as currents on any emotionally heavy subject (religion and politics). Just look at ex-Christians who are now athiests or ex-liberals now conservatives... Hell, look at ex-spouses.
People tend to have reactions against the things they stop which are emotionally heavy... Hell, I'm no different. In our need to emphasize our current decisions, humans have a tendency of looking at other options in a very swayed manner.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside