My thoughts have become muttled here lately and I would like a neet and orderly restatement on why our nations C&C has become so unpopular. I have my own thoughts but I'll hold back untill I can give my take on them one at a time. For this, I'd like it in listing please. I'm not looking for an arguement really. I'm just trying to get certain personal questions answered.

There are so many, many reasons--to the point that your question is overwhelming. For one, he has started a war in the middle east that has set us back nearly a trillion dollars and cost us countless lives, both soldiers and innocent civilians. His administration is plagued with so many scandals regarding corruption and incompetience, that it boggles the mind. Bush values loyalty over competience, and "patriotism" over logic. I could go on and on, but I think those are pretty much the important reasons.

Once again I'm actually trying to get my core ideas disproven. I'm going to go very slowly through them so please, once you've answered one, don't leave this thread as dead in your minds. I am merely asking questions and am in fact tired of argueing.

Quote:
For one, he has started a war in the middle east that has set us back nearly a trillion dollars and cost us countless lives, both soldiers and innocent civilians.

If these deaths and dollars were for a cause greater than money or life, wich most would instictually say that liberty is, would they not be justifiable?

I know that there's evidence that would suggest he lied but how can we truely be sure? What if he genuinely saw Iraq as a stepping stone towards getting to al Qauda? It's logical to believe that if you can turn a region hostile towards such an organization, that would limit that organization's "havens". I doubt Saddam did much to combat terrorism (by the way, I've yet to find someone who wants to disprove the whole $10k to terrorist families thing; if you can I beg of you to do so). I know the hilights of the tapes. I said that he told us terrorism was coming but not from him; he didn't seem too enthusiastic about helping us stop it though. You have to admitt that Saddam was not being very cooperative. He was known to have used WMDs in the past and the tapes even caught him admitting that he was untruthful to the US and the UN about weapons research. Even if no physical evidence had come up, it's forgiveable that Bush could assume he was lying. There's what you know and then there's you gut instinct. You shoul never rule EITHER out as insufficient.

Come on guys. Thirteen people have looked at this thread and only one has tried to help me out. I don't care what view you have. There is no sarcasm behind my words. I am truely just asking questions. Don't blow me off; I beg of you.

Your probably not getting many replies because either.

1. The Bush Basher types haven't noticed the thread yet. They will use any opportunity presented to rehash the same lines over and over.

2. The forum has hundreds and hundreds of examples of what your asking and nobody feels the need to repeat them.


shrug.

__________________
McCain 2008
"We make war that we may live in peace"
"...peace is the highest aspiration of the American People. We will negotiate for it, sacrifice for it, we will never surrender for it, now or ever."
"War critics can no longer credibly argue that we are losing in Iraq, so now they argue the war costs too much."
"Oderint dum metuant"
http://members.cox.net/neddy/bobhope_kerfuffles.wmv
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RnfflRNpwKA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=j-QYIP7o2-A

Aristotle seemed to have his priorities straight.

I resent being called a Bush Basher. When a liberal insults Bush then he hates America and he is a Bush Basher, but when a republican insults Clinton and talks about how bad he was/is there's nothing wrong with that? I don't care how you talk about Clinton, I know he was a great president and it's your right to say whatever you want, but it pisses me off that whenever I criticize Bush or any other republican my views are dismissed and I'm labeled a stupid liberal who is hates America and wants the terrorists to win. Because frankly that is BS. I love America just as much as the next redneck who has god bless america all over his pick up truck I just happen to show it differently by trying to come up with ways to make this country better.

What are some of the lies we liberals tell over and over about the president? I'm curious.

Hmm.... a Bush-basher has now noticed this thread.

But before I start, my bonafides: I'm a self-professed "moderate conservative" who has become thoroughly disgusted with the Bush (Jr.) Presidency. And mostly, that would reflect directly on the "style" of the man at the top of the pile that "is" the current administration - and therefore he becomes the object of my hatred.

So, I get to affectionately refer to him as "Bushie" (on a kind day, when I'm feeling sorry for the guy), or by other worser names like the Bozo-In-Chief (on a not-so-good day, when Bushie has once again managed to stir my ire).

I've been a lifelong registered Republican, except for a brief period during college when I became an independent, and except for the last few months here, when I found reason to temporarily dissociate myself from the Party once again. I supposed you could say, in a nutshell, that my political views break down along these lines when it comes to conservative philosophy: I'm "fiscally" conservative, and I'm also conservative from a "security" standpoint - however, I'm about the farthest thing from a "social conservative" that there ever was.

So basically, I come down along the lines of "run the counry first, and if you're good at that we might toss you a bone or two in terms of your moral preferences". I don't care about people being human beings - but I DO care about the President of the United States running vaporware and trying to convince the American People that there's substance behind it. I care about incompetence, and I care about stupidity. I care about someone being too dense to listen to a good idea. I care about people arbitarily shutting out valid and productive debate just because the opponents happen to have a different political ideology.

I care about the Neo-Con LIE that's somehow institutionalized itself into the Republican Party. I care about personal corruption mainly insofar as it affects the machinery of government. When it comes to the things people bring to their government jobs, I care about competence, I care about efficiency, and I care about "only" those moral issues that are so severe that they tarnish or damage the machinery of government. I couldn't care less whether Clinton got a blow job in the oval office, or whether Bushie did coke in college - but I DO care when the President of the United States lies under oath, and I ALSO care when the President lies to the American People even when he's not under oath.

I mean, geez - the President is the representative of the American People, not their daddy who knows better what's supposed to be good for them. That latter part is the judiciary's role, not the President's. Read the Constitutiobn, it says so right there. Well, anyway, to get back to topic and avoid ranting....

You ask me why I dislike this guy Bush - and the simplest answer I can give you, is that from a "political" standpoint, the guy is like a bull in a china shop. A crazed bull at that - he can't seem to think through anything "right", and as a result, he can't "do" anything right. Bushie's record of incompetence is truly staggering... I mean, we don't have to go through the list, rigiht? I really don't feel comfortable with a President who's getting his on-the-job training on taxpayer time.

So, all this stuff - and THEN, we get treated to the most secretive Presidency in US history, coupled with an unusually assertive view of the "institution" of the Presidency (vis-a-vis the signing statements and all that) that threatens any possibly harmony there might be between the three branches of government.....

Really, it's hard to be precise about this stuff. Presonally, the guy's okay. I like the man, he seems friendly enough, and he's definitely sharp and perceptive (the guy's no slouch, in spite of the image he seems to have acquired as the "result" of some of his good intentions) - but I think he has "limitations" in his thought process that prevent him from being fully effective, and um.... how can I say this.... "character defects" that don't play very well in the arena of efficient government. (Like, for instance, the idea that he seems to value loyalty more than competence - and that he's stubborn and hard-headed himself, to the point where it sometimes seems more important to save face than to resolve the problem).

Bushie is kinda the opposite of me - he seems to be "socially conservative" but not "fiscally" conservative - and I'm really not sure WHERE he stands on security posture - he talks a good game, but I get the distinct feeling that a lot of it is fluff, and his actions would seem to corroborate that perception. Glenn Beck was really funny, he said, "Bush? A conservative? Ha - forget about it. Next thing you know he'll be giving free presecription drugs to illegal aliens".

Am I being clear enough about all this? Surely this is nothing new - you've heard all this before, in all its various flavors. The main difference is, that I'm not a flaming liberal - I'm just a pissed off conservative who's listening across the aisle, and saying to myself, "those guys have a valid point".

You got a good point. It's always the same with these folks. You're a Bush hater
if you criticize Bush, you hate America if you criticize it's policies, you're an anti-semite if you criticize Israel, and you're a nut job if you believe 911 was an inside job even though it clearly was! But don't let it fool you, it's a tactic disign to trow you off. Israel and the Israeli lobby has been doing something similar to this for decades. They label any of their detractor as anti-semite so people just shut up. And it's very effective. But it also means that they have nothing to argue with so they are left with personal attacks etc..

Now here is the good news, most of these folks are not real genuine folks. They are Republican operatives that do this for a leaving. Yup! That's right! It's no hazard if they sound exactly like the Republican TV channel(Fox news), get it? I know of this Republican billionaire who has invested 200 millions $ in a liberal media BS watch group. Of course the irony is that there are no left wing media in America or we would have heard of them before the war right?. And believe me, these people do more than sit there and watch. They are very busy.

The first thing you need to learn is to control your emotions because all those personal attacks will make you angry and make you change the subject which is the goal. Don't fall for it! Keep with the subject and they will eventually debate you. But be aware for they are claver.

Now here is the bad news, i suspect most of the public forums are own by the right. They control the main stream medias, it's only natural they would try to control the internet by paying folks to represent their views right. I'm not sure about this last part but i have this gut feeling that it is the case. There's a growing right wing extremist group in north America, i can feel it.

By!

It's just really difficult to get near Bush's mind and have a slight idea of what he is thinking.

But one thing that I do criticize Bush for is his incompetence to finish what he started. Alright, in some fairness lets look at it from a positive point of view. Let's say Bush went into Iraq with a novel mission to save the people of Iraq and the rest of the world from the tyrant Saddam Hussein. Great accomplishment, but how does he go about cleaning up the mess? He prescribes the panacea: democracy.

It's as if an architect took a job to renovate an abandoned home and came out with the result that the home now has even more cracks and broken windows.

Democracy is not a prescription, but its a way of life. America was founded by an idea so strong that common civilians would fight the world's strongest military for their cause. This idea is not instilled in a common Iraq civilian. However, it is instilled in the parties fighting the civil war.

And sending 10,000 more troops to Iraq... If he made his mind to send more troops, then go through with the plan and just send as much as he can. Don't vaccillate in between, that's the reason why this war has been going on for so long.

I just think the war is being mishandled. I don't have a great solution for it either. But its not my job to lead a country.