ALERT: The Anonymous Group - Anarchist Criminals

**MissJonelyn** · Oct 18 2011, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by kilgram

I am from Spain. And it is an insult say that Spain is not capitalist. And is an insult say that PSOE is socialist.

You should be insulted. Not because the PSOE is socialist and Spain is not capitalist but because you have no fundamental understanding of Capitalism. Spain has the stench of a Social Democracy all over it.

No guarantee of Private Property Rights, High Tax Rates, Prices Controls, one of the highest minimum wages in the world, inflated monetary system, tariffs, quotes.

None of this is Capitalism. You wouldn't know a Capitalist country if it made you a millionaire.

It shows the ignorance about that party.

First point. In the end of 70s in Surennes PSOE with the presidency of Felipe Gonzalez left to be Marxist. And today is self-called a progressist party. It doesn't have anything of Marxist neither socialist.

Gonazlez resigned because the party wouldn't sway away from it's Marxist position. He returned in promise that it would become less socialist. It's still pretty socialist to this day.

Steal off American innovated drugs? LOL

Ever heard of a "generic?" Look it up.

LOL. That capitalism not allows for force. Your ignorance about capitalism is incredible.

Says the person who has no fundamental understanding of basic economics, or the price system, or what makes a country capitalist.

Ayn Rand. LOL. What good she did? Sorry but, Ayn Rand and his theory is uthopic and don't consider the humanity. No, Ayn Rand is another ultraliberal pro-corporations and anti-workers. Also defender of egotism, if I don't remember wrongly.

Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged is about Individualism and Objectivity. So you do "remember wrongly." As it is painfully obvious you never read the book.

As for "what good she did", her book has 25 Million Copies sold and was the hallmark for political and philosophical study around the world. Her book probably did more good than Karl Marx's Socialism ever did in practice around the world.

**MissJonelyn** · Oct 18 2011, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by kilgram

He didn't pay the taxes. He made an illegality. He evaded taxes.

He didn't evade taxes. He had accounts offshore. Offshore accounts aren't suppose to be taxed, and yet it was considered invading taxes.

That is being socialist thief? LOL

What else do you call it when you expropriate property? That's stealing.

And say that the PSOE is socialist is like saying that I am a priest.

They are certainly not progressive nor capitalist. You wouldn't be able to name a single thing they've done economically in the name of capitalism.

**kilgram** · Oct 18 2011, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by MissJonelyn

You should be insulted. Not because the PSOE is socialist and Spain is not capitalist but because you have no fundamental understanding of Capitalism. Spain has the stench of a Social Democracy all over it.

No guarantee of Private Property Rights, High Tax Rates, Prices Controls, one of the highest minimum wages in the world, inflated monetary system, tariffs, quotes.

WTF? highest minimium wages in the world? 600€ is high? Don't joke with me. You don't know about what you're talking.

High tax rates? For the lowest class yes, and no progressive tax rate, that is anti-socialist.

Prices controls? No, Spain doesn't have.

But again highest minimum wages in the world? Are you crazy? Spain has one of the lowest minimium wages in Europe.

None of this is Capitalism. You wouldn't know a Capitalist country if it made you a millionaire.

What nonsensne.

Gonazlez resigned because the party wouldn't sway away from it's Marxist position. He returned in promise that it would become less socialist. It's still pretty socialist to this day.

What socialist has today the PSOE? (*)(*)(*)(*), if is privatizing the healthcare, education...? PSOE privatized telefonica and PP ended, the same with other companies. PSOE is not socialist. It is a capitalist party. And you ignore the reality of Spain.

At least in Spain the conscience is becoming bigger, and the conscience of PPSOE are the same is bigger. Yes PP(the supposed right) and PSOE(the supposed left) both do exactly the same economic policies, both are rightist.

Ever heard of a "generic?" Look it up.

Obviously that I've heard about it. And?

Says the person who has no fundamental understanding of basic economics, or the price system, or what makes a country capitalist.

Do you think that I don't know economy? Because I don't agree with you, and I base my conclusions in different points, doesn't mean that I don't understand economics. Just I ignore many points of economy that I consider immoral, and must be fought.

Economy must be in service of the society. Not the contrary like today.

Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged is about Individualism and Objectivity. So you do "remember wrongly." As it is painfully obvious you never read the book.

As for "what good she did", her book has 25 Million Copies sold and was the hallmark for political and philosophical study around the world. Her book probably did more good than Karl Marx's Socialism ever did in practice around the world.

And?

Was a radical liberal, that didn't have any problem with dying people and other things. No, his philosophy is dangerous like every liberal.

**kilgram** · Oct 18 2011, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by MissJonelyn

He didn't evade taxes. He had accounts offshore. Offshore accounts aren't suppose to be taxed, and yet it was considered invading taxes.

What else do you call it when you expropriate property? That's stealing.

They are certainly not progressive nor capitalist. You wouldn't be able to name a single thing they've done economically in the name of capitalism.

Privatize healthcare, privatize telefonica, privatize Argentaria. Change the constitution to introduce a top deficit.

Make more free the firing of workers, rise the age of jubilation to 67 years. And social conservative things like mantain the concordate with the church, also be monarchic...

For all these things say that PSOE is socialist is an insult to the intelligence.

**MissJonelyn** · Oct 18 2011, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by kilgram

Privatize healthcare, privatize telefonica, privatize Argentaria. Change the constitution to introduce a top deficit.

Health care is still universal in Spain last time I checked. They just have a small percentage of their hospital which are private. Telefoncia is still public owned company. It's just privately traded. Meaning you're not allowed to purchase telefonica stocks. Last time I checked Spanish banks own them and a Dutch TV group owns them.

As for that other thing, I don't know what that is.

Make more free the firing of workers, rise the age of jubilation to 67 years. And social conservative things like mantain the concordate with the church, also be monarchic...

Churches are already not suppose to coordinate with the state. What does this have to do with the economy?

For all these things say that PSOE is socialist is an insult to the intelligence.

You really haven't named anything which gave them pro free market stance. If they were really pro free market they would eliminate all those tariffs on energy.

**Flag** · Oct 18 2011, 11:58 AM

I live next to spain, i've been there many times and I see nothing socialist there but if you that have never been to spain say so...

**MissJonelyn** · Oct 18 2011, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by kilgram

WTF? highest minimium wages in the world? 600€ is high? Don't joke with me. You don't know about what you're talking.

I said one of the highest minimum wage in world.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/sta...age_statistics

There are only 6 EU countries higher than Spain. The other countries are lower than Spain.

High tax rates? For the lowest class yes, and no progressive tax rate, that is anti-socialist.

Spain is not business friendly. It is tied with Germany with the highest corporate tax rate in the EU. And what are you talking about no progressive tax rate? Spain has a community rate and national rate. Both has a marginal rate as low as 12 percent and as high as 23 percent. That is the very nature of a progressive tax. And you have to add those taxes together too.

Prices controls? No, Spain doesn't have.

Yes they do. Pharmaceut companies are one example of an industry with them.

But again highest minimum wages in the world? Are you crazy? Spain has one of the lowest minimium wages in Europe.

You should really learn to read what I say. I said one of the highest. And I've already proven that it doesn't have the lowest minimum wage in Europe.

What socialist has today the PSOE? (*)(*)(*)(*), if is privatizing the healthcare, education...? PSOE privatized telefonica and PP ended, the same with other companies. PSOE is not socialist. It is a capitalist party. And you ignore the reality of Spain.

Health Care is still universal. Education is still free and public. Telefonia is still publicly owned by the banks.

I fail to see where the capitalism is.

At least in Spain the conscience is becoming bigger, and the conscience of PPSOE are the same is bigger. Yes PP(the supposed right) and PSOE(the supposed left) both do exactly the same economic policies, both are rightist.

This doesn't make any since. But it's irrelevant since the People's Party hasn't been in power for decades.

Obviously that I've heard about it. And?

They are merely copies of the original. When you develop a drug no other drug company is allowed to develop the generic until the patent on the drug runs out. However, Canada can make generics of American drugs since patent laws don't hold jurisdiction in Canada. Makes sense now?

Do you think that I don't know economy? Because I don't agree with you, and I base my conclusions in different points, doesn't mean that I don't understand economics.

There are plenty of people who disagree with me who actually understand economics. Probably not how things should would but at least they understand prices and supply and demand. You don't really have knowledge of either.

Just I ignore many points of economy that I consider immoral, and must be fought.

Economy must be in service of the society. Not the contrary like today.

And this is why you don't understand economics. Economics is not just some machine which goes around and does things for people. The economy is a system of people pursuing their own incentives. Things just don't magically appear for people on a whim. Everything has an inherent cost. The moment you realize this is the moment you'll come to reality.

And?

Was a radical liberal, that didn't have any problem with dying people and other things. No, his philosophy is dangerous like every liberal.

Her. And there is nothing radical about Ana Rand. She isn't even a liberal. She rejected labels. You don't have a single clue as to what her philosophy is about.

**MissJonelyn** · Oct 18 2011, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Flag

I live next to spain, i've been there many times and I see nothing socialist there but if you that have never been to spain say so...

That's because your not very knowledgeable about what makes a market free and protectionist policies.

Also I've never said it was socialist. We are referring to the PSOE. And I've been there once.

**kilgram** · Oct 18 2011, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by MissJonelyn

Health care is still universal in Spain last time I checked. They just have a small percentage of their hospital which are private. Telefoncia is still public owned company. It's just privately traded. Meaning you're not allowed to purchase telefonica stocks. Last time I checked Spanish banks own them and a Dutch TV group owns them.

WTF? Telefonica is private. Not public. The state doesn't have any participation in Telefonica.

You can purchase telefonica stocks. My parents purchased and I had telefonica stocks.

As for that other thing, I don't know what that is.

The top deficit is a recent reform that the PP and PSOE made in the Constitution, to put a limit in the deficit that could have the government.

Churches are already not suppose to coordinate with the state. What does this have to do with the economy?

That it is contradictory with a socialist party. And catholic church coordinates with the state, and have many privileges, like the capacity to choose religion teachers and they are paid by the state.

You really haven't named anything which gave them pro free market stance. If they were really pro free market they would eliminate all those tariffs on energy.

(*)(*)(*)(*), I've cited many pro-liberal decisions. We are talking about Spain. Althouh we don't have a lot of social answer, we have some. There are things that have to be done slowly, and more the liberal reforms. But PSOE has made this from the 80s. The labour protection in the 80s were much higher than today. Thanks to the PSOE Spain has less welfare system.

And about healthcare, it's clear that we have for now public healthcare. But it is being dismantled. It is receiving attacks from all sides. We are starting to have a more American healthcare system. That means a worse healthcare system.