I never said otherwise. I said the lower classes have far more challenges to overcome than any other class in this country. The simply fact of not having a large base of cash to get started alone is a huge barrier to success, and the poor is less likely to know anyone who can help them get a foot in the door. The poor also have less options about school; they can't afford to pick and choose the best private schools and colleges to attend.


No, it's not completely a class issue, but your inherited social class most certainly plays a role in your chances for successful. It's true that there is nothing inherent within the system itself to hold certain people back, but there's no denying that a person born into an upper class has a far better chance for success than someone born into the lowest class. One must be willing to take financial risks. Obviously, one born into a wealthy family will be more willing to take those risks because he or she has the resources to bail themselves out of their mistakes and failures. A poor may may be ambitious, or have a strong desire for financial success, be hard-working, but is afraid to take the risks necessary because he knows if he fails, he will likely lose everything he has.

Of course, if you're a bumbling idiot, connections are not going to be much help to you, but favoritism is a very real phenomenon. It's well known that people will almost always hire a friend, a sibling, or a child for a job over a stranger who may be a bit more qualified. The poor likely have little or no successful family or acquaintances to help them up the ladder.

You've only proven my point. On the opposite extreme, the wealthy have friends and family who are also wealthy and sucessfully established who can help them along the way.

This is where I would agree that poverty is a choice, since many living within the poverty level have a very different standard on what it means to be successful.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. I'm not suggesting you get advise about financial success from these people because they obviously have none to give. My point is that you may gain a broader perspective about the poor in America. I've had the fortune of knowing people my entire life from both the lower classes and the upper classes. In fact my extended families are opposite extremes-- my mother being raised by a successful business entrepeneur and my father being raised by the man I described in my original post.

in the end, it's people from th lower classes who are most likely to move up the social ladder, which says a lot about their ambitions.

__________________
LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE!!!

So your saying that life's now fair??
I already said that it is not about education... It is not about race religion or any of those excuses people assign to failure...
>>Ambition
>>Attitude
>>Work Ethic
Thats it!

Go ahead and keep the excuses coming.... I made the risk... I HAVE lost everything... 4 times!!! So what! I won't be held back!
That was class time and I paid well for it!!! I learned!! And then I went and risked it again!
Ambition.... Attitude ... Work ethic

Poverty in America is a Choice

I didn't have any powerful friends that helped me out... I went out and looked for people that were where I wanted to be.. I was only turned down by a small hand full of them.. Here is something that you may not know>>> Successful people don't mind helping those who genuinely want help... those who want to learn. They don't care where they come from or who they are... If you want the information >> they will give it to you.

I have many many friends that fit your description that they didn't let that stop them... One of them in a wheel chair!
Do you have any other excuses??

So you claim that some people have an advantage over others.... So what? Is that you next excuse? Are you going to let that stop you? Are you not going to help your child become successful?? I am! I have my daughters help all the time in my company... They are going to learn how to own and operate a business from the backside to the front... They are going to learn how to communicate with people and make decisions. They are going to have the opportunity to go to college IF THEY WANT >> There is a common misconception that college = success. It doesn't. It is only a tool to be used... much like a hammer is used to build a house.

Success in life is defined differently by each person you ask... Most people don't even know what they want from life. Very few people can tell you what they want and that they expect to achieve it.
Your quote could be applied to anything... I understand you are a teacher... If you know a student is capable of very high achievements... do you push them with high standards?? If they know you believe in them.. they will achieve the goal you set out for them >>> you set a different standard to be successful... didn't you?

[I didn't miss your point... I explained to you that I would rather spend my time learning from people that are where I wanted to be rather than waste my time learning how to fail... I know that is blunt >> But it is the truth...
Do I know poor people?? Heck ya! I have a business that caters to the masses... I mix it up with everyone! I hear their stories... I know their families... I have helped many of them when they needed it... But I am not going to take their advise when the time come for a critical choice... That my friend is my point!


Not sure I understand your point... but I am sure you will expand on it...

A lot of people have been chanting that "Poverty is a choice" mantra lately. It's become a staple of the get-rich-quick-scheme industry (which ironically often helps people to waste even more time and money). I think it's also a rationalization that helps otherwise morally decent people accept the ridiculous elitist philosophy of Ayn Rand.
That said, there are some people who indeed choose to be poor. Some of them even rationally.
But in order to actually choose something, you must have other alternatives, understanding of those alternatives, resources to reach for those alternatives, luck to succeed at those alternatives, and a full understanding of what the actual value is of all alternatives.
You'll find that many of these things are dependent on one's experiences. If you are born amongst people who don't know alternatives or how to get there, you are around people who don't understand the alternatives, and you are never exposed to them in a realistic fashion... and by the time you arem, you have no hope for them... well, you will not be able to choose them.
At the very least we need a strong enough education system to make up for the environmental issues that will affect choices. And even then, I hate to tell you, even if everyone chooses to follow a road out of poverty... some people will still be poor.
The fact is that extreme poverty is, in most cases, temporary. Just as we'd like it to be. But there are conditions that will limit choices and everyone will make mistakes.
The thing that's rough for us middle classers to get, and must be unfathomable to the rich, is that when you hav very few resources you cannot afford to fail. The only way to success is to take risks. Someone who cannot afford to take risks cannot realistically escape poverty.
Sure, take a few thousand people making risks they can't afford... and a few will achieve them and end up becoming more legendary rags-to-riches stories. The rest will not be given credit for trying.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

I hadn't heard of Rand until your post... But I went their site and I agree with the quote on the front page. As for the "get rich quick schemes">> they have been around forever.. And most of them are BS. That is not the choice I am talking about.


Yes... I understand that... People choose professions that they know do not pay well but choose them anyway because it is a passion of theirs... The Church.. Being a teacher... It is no secret that for the most part, these professions are not very well paid.

I give people more credit than that... Ask any kid what they want to be when they grow up.... How many will tell you they want to be a broken down loser? So they know they have an alternative! Even from a very young age kids know that America is the "Land of opportunity" >>> Any neighborhood in America has a quick escape hatch.... The Military! That is just one "Alternative" How many kids know that you can get sports scholarships? How many know that you can get Art Scholarships?
If you like to look at people as stupid and ignorant... then your statement will make sense.

Maybe you misunderstood... I am talking about America.... The United States... Not some third world country that prohibits children from getting an education.

The numbers tell you that! It takes a lot of energy to develop a good attitude and maintain it... It is easy to have a bad or sour attitude... So how do most people make choices? Path of least resistance? Yup.
It take energy to have high ambitions.... and to maintain them... BUT.. that path of least resistance works here too... doesn't it? And Work ethic? It is easy to just get by.


Success is built on personal failures... That is a fact... You show me one person that was successful in life to never failed and I will show you a lair!... You want to "Get rich fast"? That is easy too >>> Fail fast... a lot... and learn fast! It is a growth process... it is a constant learning process but you have to maintain your attitude and know that failures are class time... Don't see them as anything but that! Your attitude will affect the other traits that lead to success so your attitude is probably the most important asset you will posses..

Thats your excuse.... "I can't afford to fail" How many times have we heard that ?? We all take risks everyday... some small some big... BUT RISK is NOT what we are talking about!
It is Poverty as a Choice... If you live in Poverty... then you are the sum total of your choices... I guess I could say that you are the sum total of your excuses >>> but that would sound more abrasive... But no less true.

OG

If you sit home not working and do nothing to get a job or better yourself then it absolutely is a choice. To say otherwise is ignorant. That's like saying weight isn't a choice, I don't choose to be overweight, but then I sit home getting no exercise, eating fattening foods all day long. By default, you have chosen to be overweight. You know the cause yet you do nothing about it, by your choice. Of course not all poverty is a choice. But some? Absolutely.

__________________
JMS gets another English lesson:

Quote:

there is no "mostly unique;" thats like saying "sometimes always," its an oxymoron - its either one or the other.

The result:

Quote:

By the mid-19th century unique had developed a wider meaning, “not typical, unusual,” and it is in this wider sense that it is compared. The comparison of so-called absolutes in senses that are not absolute is standard in all varieties of speech and writing.

I agree with you Rebel... Mental retardation is a good reason for poverty... If there ever was a group of people that have a limited amount of choices... they are it... For virtually everyone else... there is a way out.

Unfortunately, with a new job starting in a couple weeks, and plane to move very soon, I'm running very short on free time-- too short for long responses, but I will conclude with this:

Yes, for most poor, it is a choice, even if for many it is their only choice (those with families, small children whose welfare they are responsiblie for, etc.), but in the end, so what? I'm not sure what you were ultimately trying to prove with this statement, but it certainly doesn't mean that the poor are lazy and useless. If anything, it may only prove that they have a very different standard for success.

The majority of the poor are productive independent members of society just as the majority of the rich are.

__________________
LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE!!!

It would make an amusing cartoon to show someone born in the lap of luxuries with parents who has millions in the bank [as like Bush] telling a child in the middle of the African desert who is trying to catch flies to eat that poverty is a choice. What you are born into has alot to do with it. If George W Bush wasn't born into luxuries and richness then he would have been nothing more than a nothing because he is a nothing, everything he became is bought but without money he would have been a nothing. Ironically that would have been better than what he became with all that money because America would not be in the shape she is in now if he didn't have the ability to do the damage he did.

YAWN.

Good luck with the new job... and the move...
My point is that it is a choice to live in poverty... just that simple.. AND that it is NOT the only choice available to people (Americans Jerry).
I also never said that the poor are lazy or useless... A lot of them work very hard... And Yes everyone has a different standard of what success is...
For instance... For me it is Time, Money, Family, Health, and Friends.
For you it may be something different.