Public Schools - Page 18

justabubba · #**171** (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

If teachers feel that strongly about how the NEA uses their money, don't join the union. problem solved.

No, it's not solved - the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops - meaning you don't have to belong to the union, but the union will still deduct from your paycheck.

Then it becomes a political issue. As it stands a majority of voters in those states are happy with the situation, or else they would vote into office candidates who would change the state laws. And because they are state laws, if you do not live in the state, what business is it of non residents how the state is run?

You are switching the topic at hand - states can run things any way they want. My post was in refutation of your statement that if teachers don't like the way the unions are run (like giving employee deductions to unrelated lib political causes,) they can leave the union - problem solved. It isn't solved because unions can still deduct from their paychecks, union membership or not. Up to speed, now?

Quote:

... The following states have a Right to Work law: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming.

Under federal labor law and the state's Right to Work law, you have the right to resign from membership in a union at any time. If you resign from membership, you may not be able to participate in union elections or meetings, vote in collective bargaining ratification elections, or participate in other "internal" union activities. If you resign, you cannot be disciplined by the union for any post-resignation conduct.

If you resign from union membership, you are still fully covered by the collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated between your employer and the union, and the union remains obligated to represent you. Any benefits that are provided to you by your employer pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, seniority, vacations, pension, health insurance) will not be affected by your resignation. (If the union offers some "members-only" benefits, you might be excluded from receiving those.) ...

http://www.nrtw.org/d/rtwempl.htm

no employee in those 22 states (with the possible execption of certain airline and railroad workers) is required to pay union dues or is forced to enjoy union membership.
i invite you to also look at the public school systems in those states and compare them to those in which union representation is stronger. my bet is the systems with a stronger union presence also have better public school results.
ymmv

Blade · #**172** (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justabubba";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

If teachers feel that strongly about how the NEA uses their money, don't join the union. problem solved.

No, it's not solved - the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops - meaning you don't have to belong to the union, but the union will still deduct from your paycheck.

Then it becomes a political issue. As it stands a majority of voters in those states are happy with the situation, or else they would vote into office candidates who would change the state laws. And because they are state laws, if you do not live in the state, what business is it of non residents how the state is run?

You are switching the topic at hand - states can run things any way they want. My post was in refutation of your statement that if teachers don't like the way the unions are run (like giving employee deductions to unrelated lib political causes,) they can leave the union - problem solved. It isn't solved because unions can still deduct from their paychecks, union membership or not. Up to speed, now?

Quote:

... The following states have a Right to Work law: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming.

Under federal labor law and the state's Right to Work law, you have the right to resign from membership in a union at any time. If you resign from membership, you may not be able to participate in union elections or meetings, vote in collective bargaining ratification elections, or participate in other "internal" union activities. If you resign, you cannot be disciplined by the union for any post-resignation conduct.

If you resign from union membership, you are still fully covered by the collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated between your employer and the union, and the union remains obligated to represent you. Any benefits that are provided to you by your employer pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, seniority, vacations, pension, health insurance) will not be affected by your resignation. (If the union offers some "members-only" benefits, you might be excluded from receiving those.) ...

http://www.nrtw.org/d/rtwempl.htm

no employee in those 22 states (with the possible execption of certain airline and railroad workers) is required to pay union dues or is forced to enjoy union membership.
i invite you to also look at the public school systems in those states and compare them to those in which union representation is stronger. my bet is the systems with a stronger union presence also have better public school results.
ymmv

So 38 states and DC have union shops, by far the majority, just as I said. It's easy to puncture your imagined correlation - eg California has union shop schools, and is scoring near the bottom of states in standarized tests.

Ixtellor · #**173** (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by justabubba";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

If teachers feel that strongly about how the NEA uses their money, don't join the union. problem solved.

No, it's not solved - the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops - meaning you don't have to belong to the union, but the union will still deduct from your paycheck.

Then it becomes a political issue. As it stands a majority of voters in those states are happy with the situation, or else they would vote into office candidates who would change the state laws. And because they are state laws, if you do not live in the state, what business is it of non residents how the state is run?

You are switching the topic at hand - states can run things any way they want. My post was in refutation of your statement that if teachers don't like the way the unions are run (like giving employee deductions to unrelated lib political causes,) they can leave the union - problem solved. It isn't solved because unions can still deduct from their paychecks, union membership or not. Up to speed, now?

Quote:

... The following states have a Right to Work law: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming.

Under federal labor law and the state's Right to Work law, you have the right to resign from membership in a union at any time. If you resign from membership, you may not be able to participate in union elections or meetings, vote in collective bargaining ratification elections, or participate in other "internal" union activities. If you resign, you cannot be disciplined by the union for any post-resignation conduct.

If you resign from union membership, you are still fully covered by the collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated between your employer and the union, and the union remains obligated to represent you. Any benefits that are provided to you by your employer pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, seniority, vacations, pension, health insurance) will not be affected by your resignation. (If the union offers some "members-only" benefits, you might be excluded from receiving those.) ...

http://www.nrtw.org/d/rtwempl.htm

no employee in those 22 states (with the possible execption of certain airline and railroad workers) is required to pay union dues or is forced to enjoy union membership.
i invite you to also look at the public school systems in those states and compare them to those in which union representation is stronger. my bet is the systems with a stronger union presence also have better public school results.
ymmv

So 38 states and DC have union shops, by far the majority, just as I said. It's easy to puncture your imagined correlation - eg California has union shop schools, and is scoring near the bottom of states in standarized tests.

Just because you do NOT have right to work laws, does not automatically make you a closed or union state.

You have been asked to provided evidence that "the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops"
Please do so.

I am actually ignorant on the subject, but if you want to continue to make these claims you need to provide evidence.

Ixtellor

MannieD · #**174** (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ixtellor";p=&quot

Just because you do NOT have right to work laws, does not automatically make you a closed or union state.

You have been asked to provided evidence that "the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops"
Please do so.

I am actually ignorant on the subject, but if you want to continue to make these claims you need to provide evidence.

Ixtellor

My state is not a right to work state, but teachers are not forced to join or pay union dues. Some teachers who do join unions complain about non-union teacher reaping the benefits of the union without paying union dues.

Blade · #**175** (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ixtellor";p=&quot

Just because you do NOT have right to work laws, does not automatically make you a closed or union state.

You have been asked to provided evidence that "the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops"
Please do so.

I am actually ignorant on the subject, but if you want to continue to make these claims you need to provide evidence.

Ixtellor

My state is not a right to work state, but teachers are not forced to join or pay union dues. Some teachers who do join unions complain about non-union teacher reaping the benefits of the union without paying union dues.

That's a contradiction in terms - if they don't have to join the union, it IS a right to work state. What IS your state?

Blade · #**176** (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ixtellor";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by justabubba";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

If teachers feel that strongly about how the NEA uses their money, don't join the union. problem solved.

No, it's not solved - the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops - meaning you don't have to belong to the union, but the union will still deduct from your paycheck.

Then it becomes a political issue. As it stands a majority of voters in those states are happy with the situation, or else they would vote into office candidates who would change the state laws. And because they are state laws, if you do not live in the state, what business is it of non residents how the state is run?

You are switching the topic at hand - states can run things any way they want. My post was in refutation of your statement that if teachers don't like the way the unions are run (like giving employee deductions to unrelated lib political causes,) they can leave the union - problem solved. It isn't solved because unions can still deduct from their paychecks, union membership or not. Up to speed, now?

Quote:

... The following states have a Right to Work law: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming.

Under federal labor law and the state's Right to Work law, you have the right to resign from membership in a union at any time. If you resign from membership, you may not be able to participate in union elections or meetings, vote in collective bargaining ratification elections, or participate in other "internal" union activities. If you resign, you cannot be disciplined by the union for any post-resignation conduct.

If you resign from union membership, you are still fully covered by the collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated between your employer and the union, and the union remains obligated to represent you. Any benefits that are provided to you by your employer pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, seniority, vacations, pension, health insurance) will not be affected by your resignation. (If the union offers some "members-only" benefits, you might be excluded from receiving those.) ...

http://www.nrtw.org/d/rtwempl.htm

no employee in those 22 states (with the possible execption of certain airline and railroad workers) is required to pay union dues or is forced to enjoy union membership.
i invite you to also look at the public school systems in those states and compare them to those in which union representation is stronger. my bet is the systems with a stronger union presence also have better public school results.
ymmv

So 38 states and DC have union shops, by far the majority, just as I said. It's easy to puncture your imagined correlation - eg California has union shop schools, and is scoring near the bottom of states in standarized tests.

Just because you do NOT have right to work laws, does not automatically make you a closed or union state.

You have been asked to provided evidence that "the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops"
Please do so.

I am actually ignorant on the subject, but if you want to continue to make these claims you need to provide evidence.

Ixtellor

You are confused - a state is either right to work, union shop, or closed shop - those are the only possibilities. If 22 states and only 22 states are right to work, then the others are either closed or union shop.

Ixtellor · #**177** (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ixtellor";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by justabubba";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannieD";p=&quot

If teachers feel that strongly about how the NEA uses their money, don't join the union. problem solved.

No, it's not solved - the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops - meaning you don't have to belong to the union, but the union will still deduct from your paycheck.

Then it becomes a political issue. As it stands a majority of voters in those states are happy with the situation, or else they would vote into office candidates who would change the state laws. And because they are state laws, if you do not live in the state, what business is it of non residents how the state is run?

You are switching the topic at hand - states can run things any way they want. My post was in refutation of your statement that if teachers don't like the way the unions are run (like giving employee deductions to unrelated lib political causes,) they can leave the union - problem solved. It isn't solved because unions can still deduct from their paychecks, union membership or not. Up to speed, now?

Quote:

... The following states have a Right to Work law: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming.

Under federal labor law and the state's Right to Work law, you have the right to resign from membership in a union at any time. If you resign from membership, you may not be able to participate in union elections or meetings, vote in collective bargaining ratification elections, or participate in other "internal" union activities. If you resign, you cannot be disciplined by the union for any post-resignation conduct.

If you resign from union membership, you are still fully covered by the collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated between your employer and the union, and the union remains obligated to represent you. Any benefits that are provided to you by your employer pursuant to the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, seniority, vacations, pension, health insurance) will not be affected by your resignation. (If the union offers some "members-only" benefits, you might be excluded from receiving those.) ...

http://www.nrtw.org/d/rtwempl.htm

no employee in those 22 states (with the possible execption of certain airline and railroad workers) is required to pay union dues or is forced to enjoy union membership.
i invite you to also look at the public school systems in those states and compare them to those in which union representation is stronger. my bet is the systems with a stronger union presence also have better public school results.
ymmv

So 38 states and DC have union shops, by far the majority, just as I said. It's easy to puncture your imagined correlation - eg California has union shop schools, and is scoring near the bottom of states in standarized tests.

Just because you do NOT have right to work laws, does not automatically make you a closed or union state.

You have been asked to provided evidence that "the vast majority of government schools in the U.S. are union shops"
Please do so.

I am actually ignorant on the subject, but if you want to continue to make these claims you need to provide evidence.

Ixtellor

You are confused - a state is either right to work, union shop, or closed shop - those are the only possibilities. If 22 states and only 22 states are right to work, then the others are either closed or union shop.

In terms of your overall argument, you are making an illogical jump.

If a State is not a right to work State, that does not mean that its teachers are unionized automatically. It only means that they have the right to be a union or closed shop. It does not mean they are.

Since you are the one making claims that the vast majority of teachers are unionized, you should probably provide actual evidence.
Not just: State X has no right to work law, thus it must be unionized. That is a logical fallacy.

Ixtellor

MannieD · #**178** (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ixtellor";p=&quot

If a State is not a right to work State, that does not mean that its teachers are unionized automatically. It only means that they have the right to be a union or closed shop. It does not mean they are.
Ixtellor

State can also have open shop unions,, but not be a right to work state, as my state is. The right to work movement has been trying to turn our state into a RtW state for years, but so far the legislature isn't buying it. And we used to be, before the 2006 elections, a Republican dominated state.

Quote:

open shop is a place of employment at which one is not required to join or finically support a labor union as a condition of hiring or continued employment.

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