Thread: Democracy can be a bad thing

Originally Posted by Sonofodin

This still has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Do you understand how the idea of the government initiating violence against people to protect people from the initiation of violence is contradictory?

Also, Danboy

Your point about people being too evil is also contradictory. If people are too evil then that means the government is made up of evil people voted in by evil people. You would actually be advocating putting power into the hands of people that are evil.

See how your premise falls apart under the slightest scrutiny?

No, because good people make up the majority. Therefore, good people should elect good people. Without government bad people can do whatever they want without consequence. Then if someone kills them, THEY are bad now too. Government IS inherently bad though. That is why the constitution is as well planned and balanced as it is.

Originally Posted by danboy9787

. Where exactly do you disagree with me? Are you saying that absolutely any form of government is automatically going to be violent? That's just not even intelligent. In an intelligent society we have a leadership structure, and as a good citizen we should be more than happy to pay a fair amount in taxes. Otherwise you are not a good citizen. It is idiotic to assume any form of taxation is theft and evil. I really do not know what your point is unless it is to say all forms are governments are evil which just makes you an anarchist and far worse than liberals or socialists or even the worst libertarian. Can you make clear what your argument is exactly?

I am an anarchist. That has been my point. The inherent nature of government requires that it initiate violence against peaceful people.

Therefore using violence against peaceful people to prevent violence from being used against them is nonsensical and insane.

If you actually believe that people are too evil for anarchy then you are extremely naive to think that these "evil" people can handle power responsibly or that these "evil" people can somehow elect people that aren't evil.

Originally Posted by danboy9787

No, because good people make up the majority. Therefore, good people should elect good people. Without government bad people can do whatever they want without consequence. Then if someone kills them, THEY are bad now too. Government IS inherently bad though. That is why the constitution is as well planned and balanced as it is.

Well, you originally said that people were too evil. You're now changing your argument.

The constitution is an utter failure, if you'd like I can show you a previous post showing a bunch of ways the constitution has been violated since its inception.

If only a little piece of paper could protect us from tyrants.. that's a fantasy and nothing more.

Sonofodin, what is your definition of violence. Can you provide examples?

Originally Posted by Sonofodin

Well, you originally said that people were too evil. You're now changing your argument.

The constitution is an utter failure, if you'd like I can show you a previous post showing a bunch of ways the constitution has been violated since its inception.

If only a little piece of paper could protect us from tyrants.. that's a fantasy and nothing more.

No. A Constitutional American Government would not be violent. And if people would educate themselves and defend themselves we would still have a good government. Blame the people, for it IS their fault.

Originally Posted by Meta777

Sonofodin, what is your definition of violence. Can you provide examples?

Why violence? Why not the initiation of violence?

I'm not against using violence in self defense or in the defense of others liberties.

I define the initiation of violence as:

The use of force or threat of force against a non-agressing individual.

Originally Posted by danboy9787

No. A Constitutional American Government would not be violent. And if people would educate themselves and defend themselves we would still have a good government. Blame the people, for it IS their fault.

It's still violent even with a constitution. It's very simple to see how a government is inherently violent in nature.

Answer these questions:

What happens to me if I refuse to fund the drug war or the war in Iraq? What about welfare and social security?

Is the government asking for taxes the same as someone asking for charity? If not, what's different?

Originally Posted by Sonofodin

I define the initiation of violence as:

The use of force or threat of force against a non-agressing individual.

I'm not against using violence in self defense or in the defense of others liberties.

Then you should have no problems with the concept of a government which uses force in defense of the liberties of non-aggressive individuals,
even if such defense means those individuals have to pay reasonable taxes.

What equivalent or better defense would there be against aggressors for such individuals if they were to live in anarchy???

-Meta

Originally Posted by Sonofodin

It's still violent even with a constitution. It's very simple to see how a government is inherently violent in nature.

Answer these questions:

What happens to me if I refuse to fund the drug war or the war in Iraq? What about welfare and social security?

Is the government asking for taxes the same as someone asking for charity? If not, what's different?

God.. LOOK AT WHAT I AM TYPING. I am telling you that our system currently is flawed because our government ignores the constitution. But even with your idea... it is perfectly legal for you to leave America. Nobody necessarily forces you to live here. You could go somewhere where you don't pay taxes. See MY point?

Originally Posted by Meta777

Then you should have no problems with the concept of a government which uses force in defense of the liberties of non-aggressive individuals,
even if such defense means those individuals have to pay reasonable taxes.

What equivalent or better defense would there be against aggressors for such individuals if they were to live in anarchy???

-Meta

Ah, you once again made the same mistake.

Taxes are not voluntary. I said you can use violence to defend against the initiation of violence. The government is initiating violence against peaceful people first. Anything that comes after that is a result of that aggression.