The thread about how us lefties hate morality gave me the idea for this one.

In political debates, people often seem to inexplicably assume that whomever they're arguing with is either stupid or evil or both. I don't know why they do this, except perhaps that politics seem to be inextricably tied to things like religion and philosophy and basic life strategy, which people can get sort of worked up about. The anger makes us irrational and perhaps even puts an unfortunate stop to what I think should be the real purpose of these sorts of conversations: communication.

We're all so worked up half the time that we forget that the people we're arguing with are pretty much just people like we all are. We're all human, right? Most of us can even type. That's a lot for people to have in common right there.

So I was thinking, maybe it would help if we would try to explain whatever moral code or beliefs we might have, so that at least we all sort of know where we're coming from. Whether you understand someone else's bushido or not, knowing that they have it helps you to stay humble. And humility is critical in important things.

So. Please explain your own personal moral code. Make it as simple or as complicated as you see fit.

Mine is fairly simple. I basically try to reflect five principles in my life. These principles have been culled together after much thought, a lot of soul-searching, and a great deal of religious and philosophical study. I'm a Morality Nerd. I think about it a lot.

These five principles are:

Truth. You have to have the truth in order to start. If you're being dishonest, either with someone else or most especially with yourself, then you're failing to accomplish anything good right from the start. Truth involves a constant process of telling the ego to shut up 'cause it gets in the way of the truth faster than anything.

Love is the second. I'm talking about love as a moral principle, here. It's about caring about people and attaching yourself to them and being part of their lives and having them be a part of yours. It's also about things like family and romance, but mostly love is about admitting to yourself that there are things out there that are more important than yourself, that are worth caring for and standing for and fighting for and dying for.

Which leads us to the third principle, courage. Knowing the path is not the same as walking the path. Courage is ultimately all about the determination of self. It's about making your choices free of the influence of fear. Fear is a valuable thing in its own way, but it shouldn't make your calls for you. Courage is making the choice to stick to what you know to be right.

Freedom is the fourth. It applies to both yourself and the world around you. Never accept any infringement upon your freedoms. Never sign a deal that lets somebody take it away. Never let someone talk you out of it. Freedom of choice, freedom of thought, freedom of belief, freedom of speech -- I'm a big fan of pretty much all freedoms. Freedom comes from giving it to others. Making a deal to take away someone else's freedom is making a deal to take away your own. Give the world all the freedom you can, and never accept anything less from the world.

Last of the five principles is peace. Whatever is accomplished through violence is only partly accomplished at best. War and violence are the worst things that humans to do each other, aside from maybe slavery. Be at peace with the world. Don't lie to it. Don't hate it. Don't try to control it. Those actions always have repercussions and you will find yourself in a fight and severely lacking in peace. God is the world, so all violence is against God. Do you want to pick a fight with God? No, you don't. Not if you don't have to.

And then it kind of loops around again back to truth, 'cause you sort of need peace to find the truth, truth to find love, love to find courage, courage to find freedom, freedom to find peace again ..

That order is also how I accept my political compromises. I will accept no compromise on the truth. Any government that lies to me is my enemy, I don't care what flag they're waving. Truth is the highest priority. If something's classified, say it's classified, but do not lie to me. Lies make it impossible for contracts to be fair and I take that contract with my government very seriously. When it comes to politics, truth is the last thing you can ever give up, 'cause without it, the other things are impossible.

Love, defined in politics as a compassionate economy, which I believe most of you would define as socialism. I believe in the welfare state. I think that taking care of people is why people form groups in the first place. Sure, some of us are rugged woodsy he-men who don't actually need society or civilization to live our lives happily, but to most of the world people like that are crazy. We all want to do well, and in order for that to happen the people we care about have to do well, and for that to happen the people they care about have to do well ... so y'know what, we might as well try to just be fair and generous with each other. Take care of the sick and the elderly and parents with kids to feed. And kids, especially kids. This is a no-brainer.

Courage. Not bluster, I could care less about bluster. Not swagger. I am not impressed with peacocks strutting in their flight uniforms across the decks of aircraft carriers. And not anger. Sure, I get riled up like anybody, and angry words make for good, dramatic, entertaining speeches, but that's not the real courage that I'm looking for. I'm looking for politicians who can get stuff done in spite of whatever pressure or bribery or threats they might face. If you're going to lead people, and that's basically what politicians do, I expect you to have the cajones to stick to your commitments. No, not "stay the course," but rather "do not compromise your job to save your butt."

Freedom. Obviously. The only things you shouldn't be free from are the above three things: the truth, the need to be basically social (as in "no killing or stealing"), and the requirement of courage. Everything else is absolutely not the government's business and I could care less what they think. Freedom is, you will note, more important than peace -- although I do believe that true freedom requires peace just as all the principles are mutually dependent. If you're stuck in a fight, you're not really free. However, in the short term, I believe that freedom is worth fighting for, along with truth, love and courage.

Peace in the context of government, or leadership, means that I think that the government has to have peace as its stated goal, only to be compromised for the above four principles. Government must be non-violent in all instances where the protection of those principles would not be compromised. People might offend each other with their words or their clothes or their beliefs, but unless they're being violent about it, the government has no authority to intervene. Other than basically living up to their contracts, people should have no involuntary service to the state. But basically, a peaceful government means a government that does not attack its people.

I'll stop there, I'm sure I've rambled enough. Now, would anybody like to tell me how their own code works and how its reflected in their politics?

That was a scrambled egg post. Truth, love, courage are virtues, not moral principles. Peace and freedom are values, not moral principles.

Morality 101:

Values are primary - they identify what is taken to be good.

Morality is a set of principles, preferably in a self-consistent system, which prescribe right action - what should or shouldn't be done.
Morality is the methodology whereby values are established and prevail.

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Blade: "more educated and literate people than Justabubba"

Justabubba: "that would include everyone"

http://politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=27847

That's fascinating, Blade! Thank you.

Does anyone else have a perspective.

Now that you've got it all straight, why don't you delete the OP and write one about morality?

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Blade: "more educated and literate people than Justabubba"

Justabubba: "that would include everyone"

http://politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=27847

I'm satisfied with the terms I'm using, thanks. But I do appreciate your concerns, which have been forwarded to the proper department.

Generally I don't think of politics in moral concerns. Politics is bureaucratic and its main principle is to organize in order to accomplish goals. The goals tend to be for the good of the nation, people, or world. I tend to side with goals that I feel are most realistic and workable rather than worrying about morals. It's rare that morality is an issue in politics as few candidates support genocide, thievery, or rape (expecting a bombardment of partisan smart-@$$ comments to follow).
Morals are for personal life.

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And I do not need to know.

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strongly disagree with jake

morality is often a discussion of moral virtues, or moral values. don't understand how one could disconnect the concept of morality from the concept of virtue
what jake characterizes as morality - a methodology to accomplish virtuous outcomes should instead be found as "ethics" in my opinion. of course, i can easily understand that a right-winger would have no fundamental understanding of ethics, as jake has repeatedly demonstrated

my personal moral code allows me to do anything i choose to do, so long as i do not intrude on the rights of others to do the same. nation states such as Switzerland, have successfully implemented that cornerstone of inter-activity ... other entities, such as the native Indian tribes, were less successful in its practice

and kudos to the insightful original post ... there is depth and clarity expressed which is seldom found when reading views of complex topics

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long standing member

There have been wiser men than Diogenes
- but they were too wise to be noticed.

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.”
Winston Churchill

Stamp this thread

INCOHERENT

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Blade: "more educated and literate people than Justabubba"

Justabubba: "that would include everyone"

http://politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=27847

this from the forumite who initiated the following thread in the "Forum Help, Feedback, Etc." section:
he's a troll and should be treated accordingly

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long standing member

There have been wiser men than Diogenes
- but they were too wise to be noticed.

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.”
Winston Churchill

As I see it, contemporary politics is all about morality. The legal system enforces a code of morality. You imply you're not worried about such because "genocide, thievery, or rape" endorsed by our state aren't occuring, but that doesn't mean that other moral codes aren't being enforced, at gunpoint if necessary.

To me, the issue in determining morality for political purposes comes down to reason and logic. If it is illogical or irrational, the government should not be able to enforce it. As you indicate, personal preference morality should be left for personal life, but the government is clearly enforcing many irrational policies which are indeed a matter of someone's morality.

My view is no one or no group has a right to control the peaceful, honest, voluntary activities of other human beings. Government should only get involved if someone or some group initiates force, fraud or coercion against other innocent people.

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer