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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 07:37 PM
GovernmentCheese GovernmentCheese is offline
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Originally Posted by rodrigu3 View Post
And how "near" do you think this "victory" is?



What exactly is your thesis, and what facts did you show? Looking over your post, I see no facts or links to sources. I'm really dumb, so could you please explain for me?
I think you should take that Senator-wannabe-tone down somewhat.
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 07:39 PM
eleanoraquitaine eleanoraquitaine is offline
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And how "near" do you think this "victory" is?
I'd say we are about 2 years away from where there will really be no real dispute that iraq is stable, democratic, and friendly with the USA.

Quote:
What exactly is your thesis
1) "More and worse sanctions are coming and soon"
2) The USA is the greatest military power in world history.
3) "we are going to stand with Israel no matter what you say or how many civilians you murder, so it merely means your own destruction to escalate."
4) I guarantee you the USA nor the West has any desire to take away your sovereignty.
5) You should start a revolution because one way or another, your evil rulers are going down.
6) Your only hope is the USA.

Though there were a few more related points made...
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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

Last edited by eleanoraquitaine; 04-10-2008 at 07:44 PM.
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 07:49 PM
rodrigu3 rodrigu3 is offline
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Originally Posted by GovernmentCheese View Post
I think you should take that Senator-wannabe-tone down somewhat.
I think you should say something relevant.
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 07:51 PM
GovernmentCheese GovernmentCheese is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodrigu3 View Post
I think you should say something relevant.
I think you might think about it
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And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 07:58 PM
rodrigu3 rodrigu3 is offline
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Originally Posted by eleanoraquitaine View Post
I'd say we are about 2 years away from where there will really be no real dispute that iraq is stable, democratic, and friendly with the USA.
What are you basing this estimate on? Because not even Petraeus knows.

Quote:
1) "More and worse sanctions are coming and soon"
2) The USA is the greatest military power in world history.
3) "we are going to stand with Israel no matter what you say or how many civilians you murder, so it merely means your own destruction to escalate."
4) I guarantee you the USA nor the West has any desire to take away your sovereignty.
5) You should start a revolution because one way or another, your evil rulers are going down.
6) Your only hope is the USA.

Though there were a few more related points made...
On sanctions: that won't affect their leadership.
On military: The US is a great military power, but even Petraeus admits that we are stretched too thin and Powel has recently said that the troop levels are unsustainable.
On Israel: Israel's concern right now is with Palestine, not Iran.
On sovereignty: The US wants to change Iran's regime - how is that not disrupting their sovereignty?
On revolution: That was covered in previous posts.
On only hope: Their only hope is that the US approaches Iran diplomatically and not militarily - it will be like Iraq, but much worse if we invade militarily.

*edit* I asked for a thesis - you can't possibly have 6 theses here and then talk about other posts being disjointed

Last edited by rodrigu3; 04-10-2008 at 08:00 PM.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 08:10 PM
eleanoraquitaine eleanoraquitaine is offline
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What are you basing this estimate on? Because not even Petraeus knows.
Many, many things. But, essentially, it was right about the timetable that I and many people I respect thought it would take all along. For a while, things looked bad and we were off pace, but the surge has brought things back in line with my original projection.

Quote:
On sanctions: that won't affect their leadership.
Nonsense. Its not a cure-all, hence the need for military invasion. But, if will soften them up in many ways.

Quote:
On military: The US is a great military power, but even Petraeus admits that we are stretched too thin and Powel has recently said that the troop levels are unsustainable.
We aren't stretched too thin to destroy the iranian regime right now, things are improving in iraq, and NATO is sending more troops to Afghanistan (as are we). As for occupying them long term and building a democratic state, this is another matter entirely and is not necessary nor desirable.

Quote:
On sovereignty: The US wants to change Iran's regime - how is that not disrupting their sovereignty?
I'm speaking long term of course. But our issue currently is not with them being sovereign but with them supporting terrorism and attacking our troops in Iraq.

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On revolution: That was covered in previous posts.
Not really. You see, there is an active resistance inside iran that we are aiding. Any iranian that wants whats best for iran should join it and help the USA bring an end to their evil regime.

Quote:
On only hope: Their only hope is that the US approaches Iran diplomatically and not militarily - it will be like Iraq, but much worse if we invade militarily.
There is nothing to be done diplomatically with a regime of lunatics intent on war with an intellectually superior and better armed State (Israel) backed up by the greatest military power in world history (USA). They are obviously incapable of even seeing their own interests, let alone caring about the interests of peace.

Quote:
*edit* I asked for a thesis - you can't possibly have 6 theses here and then talk about other posts being disjointed
Its one thesis, built upon several listed facts, that iran's only hope for peace is to overthrow its current regime themself because if THEY don't do it, WE are.
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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

Last edited by eleanoraquitaine; 04-10-2008 at 08:14 PM.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 08:25 PM
eleanoraquitaine eleanoraquitaine is offline
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Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

Isaac Asimov
One of my favorite books. Have you really read it?
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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 08:58 PM
rodrigu3 rodrigu3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eleanoraquitaine View Post
Its one thesis, built upon several listed facts, that iran's only hope for peace is to overthrow its current regime themself because if THEY don't do it, WE are.
There we go. The problem is that our business in Iraq will not be done in two years. 15 month tours for more than 140,000 troops? This is not sustainable with an injury rate of 6000 troops per year and a mortality rate of 800 per year. Stretch this out for another 10 years, which is the more likely situation, and you're looking at 90,000 injured, 12,000 killed in total.

We aren't going to be overthrowing the Iran regime, because that would just further destabilize the mideast and increase the number of fronts on which we would have to fight insurgent terrorists. This translates to more tax dollars spent, more debt to China, and more lives lost. We need to regain our leverage in diplomatic relations - something that we have sorely missed for the past few presidential terms. Our economy cannot sustain the effort in Iraq and Afghanistan alone, let alone an additional theater in Iran. Where do you suppose we get the manpower? The money? The resources? It simply cannot be done without severely disrupting the lives of all Americans.

Last edited by rodrigu3; 04-10-2008 at 08:59 PM.
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 09:01 PM
eleanoraquitaine eleanoraquitaine is offline
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It simply cannot be done without severely disrupting the lives of all Americans.
Sure it can. We will easily annihilate the iranian regime and military without occupying or doing nation building. Its inevitable. The war can not be stopped short of the iranians overthrowing these madman themself.
__________________
Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

Last edited by eleanoraquitaine; 04-10-2008 at 09:02 PM.
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2008, 09:16 PM
rodrigu3 rodrigu3 is offline
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Originally Posted by eleanoraquitaine View Post
Sure it can. We will easily annihilate the iranian regime and military without occupying or doing nation building.
Destroying the regime means defeating their military. How can a nation like Iran remain sovereign with a defeated military and no leadership?

Last edited by rodrigu3; 04-10-2008 at 09:16 PM.
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