I don’t care that god's reason is superior. In fact, I believe by definition that it is. I only care that god does in fact follow reason, the more perfect the better. This makes the reason god follows the final authority, not god. If I believed in god, I would believe in his reason that tells me what is right and wrong, what is law and what should not be because by definition his reason is perfect.

My intention here is not to say I'm equally as qualified as god to judge laws, right and wrong, etc. My intent is to separate Reason from All Powerful and to place rights and laws on the basis of reason. God can be as all powerful as you want, if he did not practice reason, we would have no reason to follow him.

And god's law is debatable because god himself is not dictating for us every intricate detail of his law for us as we move about on our lives. God's reason and laws may be perfect, but we still lack any ability what so ever to know what this perfect reason and law is, so to that degree it is debatable in practice, but not in principle.

__________________
True knowledge exists in being aware of what you don't know.

ROFL... Ahh so it's the reasoning that is perfect, not God... MAN that is one teeny tiny pin you're dancing on sis...

God is indistinguishable from his reasoning... It is because of God's perfection that his reasoning is perfect... Trying to advance a distinction is merely a function of sophistic evil. Which as usual and by definition is absurd.


HEY! Great non sequitur..


Wow... I don't think evil has ever expressed itself better... But here's the thing... It's God's decision, it is his will that you exist at all; he has given you the liberty to choose which path you walk; You do not follow God because of that gift he has given you; you choose not to follow him... This you do for your own selfish reasons, your flawed, shortsighted, invalid, unsound reasons... It has nothing to do with his means to reason, period.

ROFLMNAO... I love it when leftist run to declare something 'debatable' because they want to argue with it. God's laws are not debatable sis... they're God's law; period. You can argue with it until your swimming in everlasting (*)(*)(*)(*)ation, but not one word of it will effect the law or its perfection a scintilla.

I am in perfect understanding of God's law; its not complicated... God makes them clear to anyone who seeks to know them.

The illusion that they are debatable is the deception that is advanced by evil... which is presently using you to do so.

Didn't say that, but you and your ilk seem to think that you know God's mind so well you can tell us he he actually cares which gender you have sex with etc etc, if God is incredibly capacious then I have no place for your God.

When you and I disagree it's just that - a disagreement, but when you say try and impose your believes on my children your educational laws - then it's a fight. I don't trust that religion will keep to itself because innate in all religion is the totalitarian impulse not to just have you YOURSELF believe but to force all society to bend the knee to your celestial dictator you call God.

That's a load of crap, religion is the biggest retardant in history of human civilization, it constantly opposes scientific knowledge and advocates monolithic totalitarianism and barbaric and mysticism whenever it can.

You talk as if faith (ie believing something without evidence) is not a good thing, in actual fact it's dangerous.

Sorry, but if your God cannot accept the fact that I cannot bring myself to believe he exists then he's not all-benevolent is he? I find that the Bible is a ridiculous moralistic piece of trash and is a ridiculous piece of fabricated crap.

If anything your post shows what a despotic and tyrannical nut your God really is, please read the OT and see what a genocidal warmongering nut your God really is.

[/quote]No, don't come at me with that crap, and don't call it faith, or prepare to have faith despised.[/quote]

If the kinda blind submission to an unprovable God is what you call faith, then faith is bunk.

Your beliefs deserve to be treated with ridicule.

You believe in a celestial dictatorship where every human being is completely supervised and invigilated without letup every instant of your life from conception until death - and at death is where the real fun begins - because you either go to a paradise which according to every description I have read would be hellish, consisting of eternal praise and perfect servitude, unending and benign - worst of all a benign dictatorship. Or you go to Hell for eternal torture for an offense which you probably couldn't have failed to commit, because as is well said about religion once: 'it postulates that we are created diseased and then ordered to be well'. I don't know about you but I find religion a disgusting idea.

Your argument seems to claim that reason is only subjective to the one practicing the reason, not relative to anything external. I disagree. All reason leads in the same two directions... towards Logical truth or logical falsity. With perfect understanding and faculties of reason, god will alwasy reason with logical truth, but god does not create that truth. God is bound by it and can only come to that truth. To this end, I am happy to consent to god's law as a product of perfect reason deriving truth. But I will attest again that it is only the truth and the perfect derivation of the truth through reason that gives god this authority, not merely the power of god to control or create absolutely.

Nothing non sequitur about it. If god follows reason, then it follows that it is the reason that god follows that is the final authority, not god himself. It is god's reason, and not merely god's power to control or create, that gives his laws legitimacy. So I still conclude that rights are a product of that reason, and not merely the absolute power to enforce it. In so doing, I continue to refute your idea that the legitimacy comes from god's ability to create or control and uphold that any such rights or laws come from reason, if anything.
No decision necessary for god, only the implementation of the truth. And our following god has everything to do with his reason. If god practiced no reason, we would have no reason to think we have been given any liberties at all or that god won't suddenly change his mind or punish us anyway just for the fun of it. If god has any legitimacy, and if we have any reason to follow god, it is because god is grounded in reason or truth. If you disagree with this statement, then there is no further reason to discuss this. I don't see how this can be broken down any further than to matters of opinion.
I did not say god's law is debatable (unless god does not practice perfect reason). I said our understanding of god's law IS debatable. Meaning you have no better understanding of perfect reason than I do.
Assuming you seek to know them, then this is a valid argument. However it's not sound. I have no reason to believe God makes anything clear to anyone. You claim to understand god's laws, a product of perfection, and you did this how? With your reason? It's infinitely more likely that you've reached perfect delusion and not the perfect reason required to understand anything about god.

You will excuse me for seeing no further reason to debate with someone who thinks he has a perfect understanding of god's law.

__________________
True knowledge exists in being aware of what you don't know.

Perhaps we are simply misunderstanding each other. I am neither for nor against the war in Iraq. In actual fact, I am disappointed that it was not a 'War for Oil' as so many Leftists claimed. If it had been a war for oil, we would all be enjoying low fuel costs right now and our economy would still be happily chugging along.

BTW, have you read what you are writing??? It seems to DRIP with Leftist Intellectualism...are you sure you're a Right Winger?

You do know the RIGHT WING is the one who was and still is set on revenge and purging Iraq of culture, which is understandable. I don't think we're attacking the Muslims on a large enough scale.

We should have gone after Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Palestine, and Iran at the same time, DECIMATED their forces, taken their oil, and flipped the UN the bird all at the same time. And to shut up the other countries wagging their fingers at us, simply offer them low priced oil and justify the entire thing as an Issue of National Security.

And if Russia, China, and the EU put up a fuss, the land could easily be divided up four equal ways. Forget all of the hogwash and the back and forth bull that the UN throws. They all have agendas just as every single government does.


BTW, I did not imply that the rich and powerful are responsible for my and ANYone elses ACTIONS, but a wise man once said, if the rich do not do anything to bring up the poor and destitute, allowing their numbers to grow without limit, eventually despite their high walls, the poor, through sheer numbers will reach up and bring them down.

Thomas Jefferson said, I expect the roots of the Tree of Freedom will need to be fertilized by the blood of revolution every 10 to 20 years.

I believe that he was referring to the fact rich often believe it is their 'BIRTHRIGHT' to rule over those around them, as if they are someone SUPERIOR to everyone because they have money. The rich often ignore those less fortunate around them, sometimes LITERALLY stepping over homeless people to get into their sky-rise NY mansions. Donald Trump himself openly admitted to doing so on many occasions.

You are completely missing the point. You are making your point as if God is a person who personally affects human rights decisions. The point is, that if human rights in general does not have any moral athority above it then human rights can be anything the powerful of the world want them to be. Anything that seems like a good idea at the time to the current cultural norm. In the most obvious case, God/religion would be that moral athority. Having God as that moral athority would prevent any random completely irrational human rights occurance because there would be a general set of moral rules to be fallowed.

ROFLMNAO... No you didn't 'say' that, but it's precisely what you implied... and you just did so again... God is God and he exists despite your feeble refusal to accept his authority and be held accountable for your deviant actions... of course this will have no bearing on you BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE for your deviant, unhealthy, utterly selfish actions.

Ahh... So you feel that the religion which provided the principles on which the very concept of human rights rests; which sets at the corner stone of the nation which freed in just the last 6 years 50 million people from leftist totalitarians... which has throughout its history freed billions of people, at risk and loss of massive sums of its people and treasure; you feel that THAT religion is totalitarian... This even as you advocate for human secularism which in just the last 60 years has murdered 150 million innocent people who simply disagreed with their governance?

ROFLMNAO... Leftists...


My, my... that's a some broad statement of faith ya have there..

But here’s the thing, the powerless will always be ruled by the powerful friend; I've chosen God as my Lord and Master and will abide no other...

Now where do you see that as being dangerous?

My bet is you find it dangerous because you've succumbed to following earthly masters and find my position and rightly so to be one which you will never be able to control... I reject you, your ideology and the ruinous policy which never ceases flowing from it and when it's all said and done, it is you that will be begging my Lord for forgiveness... which he is standing ready to provide and all you have to do is ask him for it, with a sincere and repentant heart.


Oh you've not even begun to be sorry... but you'll have all of eternity to get that way... But I say that if you sell the Lord, then you've sold me... I'm sure that in your reckoning when this exchange is played back you'll have a good argument... because I can sense your intellectual power.

If I were to judge you right now, just as a finite human being; I could readily win a conviction that you don't believe because you don't want to believe... with nothing more in evidence than these two exchanges... Your entire argument is one set on nothing more than faith and your subjective desire to avoid being held accountable for your actions by a good and righteous God.

But I'm sure that you're not on your best game here and when you're standing in judgment for your immortal soul, that you'll be better prepared...

ROFLMNAO... Of course you will not be any better prepared and you'll end up begging for God's mercy which will not be possible, given you overtly turned and refused that mercy when you had the choice...

But hey... it's your soul.



ROFL... Here's the thing about ridicule; it requires power to pull off. I serve a Master whose authority is vastly superior to you and those you serve; furthermore, of the gifts to me by which my master has provided; the intellectual means to advocate effectively for him precludes you being capable of such…
SO... well, you already know who owns who here... you just don't want to, or can’t face admitting it; so instead you kick and stomp your rhetorical feet pretending to ridicule that which you've no intellectual or moral means to do...


Your inference and the implication formed through it, of my religion, is absurd beyond measure; it's wholly perverted and sets as wholly detached from reality and as such can and must only serve evil...


What you've just described is the leftist state...


You've been created by perfection and all he asks as that you recognize him and be grateful to him for his grace; his gift of life and the right to live free and pursue that which fulfills that life. You've been given the freedom to choose your path and without regard to whether or not you accept his existence you'll be held accountable for those choices.

What always strikes me about you people is, as I've pointed out above and across this forum, how you deny the existence of God to avoid his eternal authority, while you spend every waking hour advocating policy which can ONLY lead to mortal tyranny.

What a sweet irony indeed, where leftists incessantly cry about how the force of perfect good is being forced upon them; 'forced' by its very existence, thus to the only way to appease them is to rid the culture of that force; as they force evil upon the world, crushing all cultural standards which stand to promote decency and good... while deceitfully declaring themselves that which stands for tolerance and understanding...

However, by any objective observation it is readily discernable that through and by the very tolerance of good, one little seemingly innocuous, yet evil policy at a time, it is evil which has expanded its grip on this world... in the very name of tolerance itself.

Hmm... but I wonder... Of the two; Good and Evil... which would use deceit as the means by which it to advance?

Think about it... Of good an evil, which would declare it a right to murder the most innocent among us... and in doing so deny that by embracing such as a right, we do not undermine our own right to our own lives?

Friends, these people of the left are the very personification of evil... they are that which serves only death and misery; they are not with us and with each instance of tolerance for them we take another step towards the certainty of catastrophe.

God is the alpha and the omega... he is the extent of reality, infinite in scope and reason; God is perfection in reason and perfect reason is God... Therefore where perfect reason exists, God exist and the scope of that reason is founded in God and his authority. It is God who created the reasoning, not the reasoning that created God; God preceded the reasoning... Any questions?


[/quote]

Well there's the problem see... God doesn't follow reason, he is reason... perfect reason, infinite in scope and as such it is God that created the reason, not the inverse. God's power is irrelevant to whether one follows his reason... in this life he has granted you the liberty to make choices; choices for which you'll be held accountable; you'll either serve God or you'll serve evil; and for the record, this notion you're advancing that you can respect the reason and not the creator of that reason is a rationalization that serves only evil...


Of course you do, as that is the nature of evil... You want to dismiss the creator while giving lip service to the reason he created... the result of which is the ultimately undermining the perceived authority of both.

Human Rights are in fact a product of God's perfect reasoning; reasoning which could not and would not exist in his absence...

This is very simple Jeff, despite your inability to grasp it; absent an authority greater than man, MAN is the greatest authority... Now that is an incontestable fact sis... this despite your need to debate it.

Since in the absence of God, man is the greatest authority, it follows that the greatest authority OF MAN, is the sum of men and the power inherent within that sum, expressed in MANS GOVERNMENT. In the BEST CASE SCENARIO... that power is vested with a government which is comprised of representatives of the people... but absent the authority of God, which necessarily results in the absence of God's perfect reasoning, the representatives will be left to represent based upon fale reasoning, flawed reasoning; reasoning that can and only WILL result in catastrophe, calamity and chaos... OKA: Leftism and the mangled tracks it drags behind it.


One cannot separate God's reasoning from his presence... where god exist, so exists his reasoning; and as always.... where the positive is true the inverse is true.


ROFLMNAO... You're such a leftists, sis... You assume your existence before everything else. In fact, the universe is how God wants it... and that you've been given the liberty to choose your path, has no bearing on how God is or 'should be'... I get the impression that you feel your gift of life somehow extends you some power... that friend is a illusion, which is I assure you the basis on which your delusion, regarding what God needs to be for you to respect, admit or tolerate his existence... rests.


[quote-=PI]ROFLMNAO... I love it when leftist run to declare something 'debatable' because they want to argue with it. God's laws are not debatable sis... they're God's law; period. You can argue with it until your swimming in everlasting (*)(*)(*)(*)ation, but not one word of it will affect the law or its perfection a scintilla.


[/quote]


ROFL... Sweet Rationalization... But God's law is real simple Jeff... You've been given life and are entitled to pursue the fulfillment of that life; to the extent that you do not use your life to the detriment of another to pursue fulfillment of their life. You may rationalize that to mean whatever you want, but you'll be judged in finality for your choices, that understanding being one of them...







You've overtly chosen that 'understanding,' it's a function of deceit and serves evil; it's one for which you'll be severely judged... You've advanced a false witness, which may result in another following evil, which will result in his life being filled with catastrophe, calamity and chaos...



I asked God to let me understand and I listened...


No... With God's understanding...


Yeah, that’s' precisely what I would expect evil to say...

You're not excused, but you are dismissed... with your concession noted and summarily accepted...

That's how it is, with or without God. Even if we accept God as real, he simply plays the role of the "most powerful" and continues determining human rights by "might makes right."

Of course the powerful of the world are disproportionately more likely to figure out that the God thing is bunk and realize their own power. Typically the "we need religion to keep our moral authority" only seems to work on the poor, the less powerful.

1. Prove it.
2. Prove that this has ever been different.

If that were really true, shouldn't we expect murder and robbery to be more common?
If it were true wouldn't adultery be normal rather than a practice frowned upon by most.

The norm as I see it is for people to judge the "norm" by what they see on Maury rather than what they see in real life on a daily basis. Most humans are moral most of the time, with or without God.
And with or without God, they seem perfectly capable of rationalizing when they are not moral.

Wrong. Really wrong. Unbelievably wrong!

God for all practical purposes... unless he shows up... becomes whatever the elites that interpret him want him to be. God is simply a proxy for those in power at any given time or place.
All God does is control. But order is not always morality... and sure as hell isn't "human rights", at least not in any consistent way.

For your God theory to work, his following would have to be completely out of human hands.

But no... it's not and cannot be (unless God shows up). The bible is a human construction. The people who interpret it are human. The enforcers are human.
All the same problems that exist with government, business, and anything else in human life exist with God.

Plus one... He's a nonsequiter. God has nothing to do with human morality. Faith does not equal morality. It does not equal rights. The concept that it is somehow prerequisite does nothing more than divide people and create more chaos and meaningless divisions between people even when they agree on a basic moral principle!

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

Since I feel a need to hit my head with a hammer today....: