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Old 05-09-2008, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SpankyTheWhale View Post
Christianity's evil (which is really, really, really small from what I know) does not offset or invalidate Islam's evil (which I also acknowledge is really, really, really small). It is a moot point.
It doesn't offset or invalidate, I agree, but when someone is intent on bashing Islam's alleged 'evil', I'd like to remind them that Christianity isn't perfect itself. No religion is, and I don't feel you can speak lowly of one religion, while ignoring the negative aspects of other religions.
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:29 AM
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It doesn't offset or invalidate, I agree, but when someone is intent on bashing Islam's alleged 'evil', I'd like to remind them that Christianity isn't perfect itself. No religion is, and I don't feel you can speak lowly of one religion, while ignoring the negative aspects of other religions.
One religion's lack of perfection has no bearing on whether or not it could diagnose and treat imperfections in another. Not to mention that I do believe that there are religions that are worse in practice than others.
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I literally think the opposite. The way FoxNews presents information, they try much harder and go out of their way to respect the public's intelligence, far more so than the so-called "liberal" news media.
I'm speechless.
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  #1033 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 01:30 AM
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One religion's lack of perfection has no bearing on whether or not it could diagnose and treat imperfections in another. Not to mention that I do believe that there are religions that are worse in practice than others.
Do you mean to say you believe there are religions worse than Islam?

Forgive me if I am incorrect with this.
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:37 AM
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Do you mean to say you believe there are religions worse than Islam?

Forgive me if I am incorrect with this.
If we compare fundamentalist ideology to fundamentalist ideology, I do believe that Islam is the worst that I know of. I figure that the most evil in a religion is concentrated within the fundamentalist sect(s) of that religion, so if one religion's fundamentalism does more evil than that of another, then it can be said that the religion itself is more evil than the other. Realise that this can still hold true even if neither compared religion is all that evil at all. It even works as far as comparison goes if both religions are actually very good.
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I literally think the opposite. The way FoxNews presents information, they try much harder and go out of their way to respect the public's intelligence, far more so than the so-called "liberal" news media.
I'm speechless.
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SpankyTheWhale View Post
If we compare fundamentalist ideology to fundamentalist ideology, I do believe that Islam is the worst that I know of. I figure that the most evil in a religion is concentrated within the fundamentalist sect(s) of that religion, so if one religion's fundamentalism does more evil than that of another, then it can be said that the religion itself is more evil than the other. Realise that this can still hold true even if neither compared religion is all that evil at all. It even works as far as comparison goes if both religions are actually very good.
I don't think that logic is effective for any practical use.
It's somewhat safe to say the fundies of Islam are currently the worst and most numerous fundies in the world (although I think we're really grasping at straws when we try to compare "worst"... Hindu fundies aren't as widespread, but when they do bad- they really do bad! Same with Christian fundies in some African countries).
But what good does it do to then claim the whole religion is worse?

I think we do better by seperating evil sects of a religion from the religion as a whole. We should be inclusive to members of a religion that reject terror, at least insofar as to recognize their religious rights, while showing no tolerance to the terrorists.
That works because terrorists tend to kill more members of their own religion than of others... They really are self-ruining.
But when we say "You're fundies are bad, therefore you are bad" we become a threat, not only to their lives but to their freedom and faith.
And when we use the rhetoric of "destruction"... how can anyone be so foolish as to think that will do anything other than push the regular Muslims toward the side of the fundies- the ones claiming to be defenders of the faith.

Try an experiment. If the US starts a "war on Christianity"... let's see how many Christians join up with militia groups vs. those who just start cozying up to athiests.
As a nontheist, I would be a hundred times more afraid for my life if Christians believed we seculars were out to destroy them. Why would it be any different if I were amongst Muslims.
True, that part of the world is more dangerous to begin with... but if they thought I was out to destroy them... it would only be worse for me, wouldn't it?
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Makedde View Post
It doesn't offset or invalidate, I agree, but when someone is intent on bashing Islam's alleged 'evil', I'd like to remind them that Christianity isn't perfect itself. No religion is, and I don't feel you can speak lowly of one religion, while ignoring the negative aspects of other religions.
I think the inherent problem with people accepting Islam is the commands it teaches in its fundamental commandments to kill all non beleivers. that is obviously patently UnAmerican!!! Christianity teaches love for your neighbor as yourself and a life of servitude to others whether they beleive or not!

There are DRAMATIC differences in philosophy and teachings. Are there rogue Christian groups? Of course there are, but they are defying the teachings of the religion. Muslims who kill non beleivers are supported by their religious teachings.

THERE ARE STARK DIFFERENCES!!!
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:49 AM
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Muslims who kill non beleivers are supported by their religious teachings.
Christians who kill are supported by their religious teachings as well.
Religious rationalization is all about selective interpretation. It happens in all religions... and that's why they all change over time and why the big ones draw apart into sects.
You can't really control it.

But you can tweek it a bit. Religions are most likely to change in the direction of that which benefits the members most. Religions may seem top-down, but the fact is that they are all believer-driven. Leaders may have authority and may have power... but when it goes against the grain of what the believer needs to get by- it is ultimately unsustainable.

But as it is now, when you have failed states or states under the control of illegitimate governments... violence thrives and you can expect all believers to either join it or be silent in fear.
The good thing about the ones who are silent in fear: People who do things out of fear will strike back against those who terrify them the moment it is possible!
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:53 AM
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Christians who kill are supported by their religious teachings as well.
This is actually 100% incorrect! The judaeo Christian teachings do not support killing of another! Read the text!!! The teaxt of Islam expressly encourages the killing of non beleivers. There is no such idea in Christianity!
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:55 AM
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But as it is now, when you have failed states or states under the control of illegitimate governments... violence thrives and you can expect all believers to either join it or be silent in fear.
The good thing about the ones who are silent in fear: People who do things out of fear will strike back against those who terrify them the moment it is possible!
What you are describing is bsic human nature in fight or flight mode. Has nothing to do with religious beleifs.
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Old 05-09-2008, 06:10 AM
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Pick any political issue, and the resulting debates tend to follow a script. Gobal warming? Israel? Abortion? It doesn't make any difference in that arguments tend towards the formulaic and polemic, one side setting up shop next to the goal post at one end and the other side setting up shop at the other, never the twain shall meet, with no compromise, and with platitudenous statements acting in place of rational analysis. Exaggeration elicits complete denial elicits more exaggeration.

Instead of this cycle of complete vilification and then knee-jerk apologia, what if people were to avail themselves to information OTHER than the various web sites they peruse, or rely on something more than anecdotal suppositions?

There are several opinion polls out there published by reputable people revealing what Muslims actually think. I think the reading of a few of these polls would be helpful for those indulging in denial as well as those indulging in exaggeration.
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