Religious beliefs are subject to human nature. They do not exist outside of it.
That is exactly why they change.

Pay close attention to theology. Note the use of "the sword" as a metaphor for Christians. It's considered purely metaphoric.
But you and I both know... if Christians felt they needed to kill, if they needed a rationalization... the metaphor would become literal.

On the other hand, most Christians are not huge on actively converting others. Despite the fact that it's explicit in the bible and is taken rather literally in most theology.
Why? Because it is disruptive and it conflicts with other desires Christians as humans in the context of modern Western society.

So why don't most Muslims kill if it's so embedded? Because that is not worth it to them... just doesn't seem right. It conflicts with other beliefs and desires. It also conflicts with other parts of their religious texts.
So there will be movement toward changing the interpretation into symbolism, jihad into a "spiritual combat" without bloodshed. Why? Because it is more desirable to more believers.
The violent sects will be limited to areas where that violence is in demand for other political reasons... and thus desirable to many in the population.

So the best course of action is to let things go, make life harder on terrorists when possible... easier on regular people when possible. Lessen the factors that put violence in demand, increase factors that make violence undesirable and counterproductive.
Let people gloss over Muhammed with an idealized iconic figure that "stands for peace". Why do people take such issue with that? If they believe he is some kind of peacenick, they will strive to be like that.

I think it's pretty silly when you see the Islamophobes arguing against a Muslim who is denouncing terror and stating Muhammed to be a man of peace... and somehow thinknig that this is productive in stopping terrorism.
And yet I have seen such arguments. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Let them believe their alleged prophet is a man of peace... That's how the religion will become more peaceful. History be (*)(*)(*)(*)ed. It's a religion! Does it really matter if they have an accurate assessment of their alleged prophet (If I cared, I'd sugest the first thing they do is stop thinking he talked to God... same goes for Christians with Jesus)?
No. What matters is that they become more peaceful.

It gets me thinking that some people don't have their priorities straight. Many see the Muslims as a market for selling their own religion by whatever means necessary... or at least reaffirming their own beliefs to themselves. I personally have no stake in that crap. I'm resigned to living in a world mostly populated with monotheists obsessed with some alleged "Holy Land" and who think I'm going to Hell.
I say if people are believing nonsense (and they will and you will not change that nor the type of nonsense they believe), that nonsense might as well lead them toward peace.

And it will over time, provided the greater structure of the world order is conducive to peace.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III
what your pet really thinks of you...

The Islamophobe moniker is a misnomer! I am not afraid of all muslims. I do recognize that their religious text that they hold sacred calls for them to tolerate no other beleifs and use all means neccessary to rid the world of those who do not beleive the same things they do.

If you do not agree with my assertion above, take a look at the various Muslim sects. Why do they actively try to kill one another? It is because of the intolerance of different beleifs.

Now take a look at Christianity. There are numerous divisions within the Christain Church, but NONE are trying to kill one another and most agree that, while we differ in our beleifs slightly, nobody knows which (if any) of us is actually 100% right.

I realize that it is convenient for atheists to view all religions the same. Its a lot like Left wing leaning people categorizing and labeling people to keep there little world simple and neat. But the truth is that all religions are not the same! Islam is marked by violence everywhere it exists. Budhism isn't! Christianity isn't!

So simplifying your viewpoint in order to dumb the world down to a level where you easily understand it is no way to actually come to an understanding of what is actually happening.

I never said you were. I used the label to describe people I have seen arguing in the manner I described.
But on the other hand... if you assume that the killing is inevitably part of the text and an immutable part of Islam... how would you not be an Islamophobe exactly?

Why do a majority of Muslims not kill anyone?
Why do communist guerillas, military juntas, various faith-based revolutionary movements around the world, and strange lone wolves from the midwest kill people?
Terrorism's roots are always in the lust for power, control, and material. Religion and ideology are the rationalizers. Abstract thoughts are far more mutable than the need for material or the lust for power.

You want to know why there are Muslim sects killing each other? They think that is the way in which you gain control and take power.
It's actually not much different from gangs in the inner cities of America... and like in that case, a scared majority remains silent... all the while being labeled as evil themselves.

None? You're not looking hard enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

You're mixing up religion with society. Most Christian groups are in the West... the "modern" countries, places with history of democracy, well-off populations... great places to live.

But shoot over to subsaharan Africa... and there among some violent Muslim sects you'll also find violent Christian sects. Why? Because they are in chaos... just like in the Middle East.
Underdeveloped and exploited by years of colonization... the ethnic groups in long-lasting feuds exacerbated by current tensions over power and resources.

And then check out Latin America. What religion do you think most guerillas identify with in that part of the world? Similar to inner city gangs (themselves basically terrorists)... self-proclaimed Christians. Try telling them otherwise. I dare you. Then run.


All people label things. Conservatives enjoy overgeneralizing liberals as well.
I never said religions are the same. They have differences. The differences are directly related to history.
But the phenomenon of religion... It's universal. The reason people have religion... universal.
The success of religion is always dependent on those reasons. And the specific history of a group will determine how those religious needs are met.
And even then there are differences like catch-phrases, weird metaphysical things, sex mores... but those have nothing to do with war.

The mistake you make is thinking history is over. History is ongoing. Religions will continue to adapt and develop.

Who is simplifying?
You're mistake is believing that "comparative religion" is applicable.
That would be true if the goal was to worry about whether some people believe in some living god-person messiah or some prophet. Maybe you care about that... but I don't.

You're getting mixed up on who is simplifying.
You're only looking at one variable of human existence: religion. You assume that is the variable that matters. You seem to be assuming that what is written in text is immutable.
While written religions are more resistant to change... they still change.
Really look at how Christianity has changed over the centuries. It changed. Written or not.
Islam has also been different in different places at different times.

But the thing is... I don't really care what people think of God. For me the issue is violence and strife. To really look at it requires looking more at how humans act.
It requires noting the differences between Muslims who kill and Muslims who don't... and the similarities between Muslims who kill and other religious/ideological groups that kill.
You'll find the greater similarity is terrorism itself. Religion is a red herring. Religion is an excuse.


But to be honest, I think people are just too invested in religion to admit the scary things in this: that members of another religion can live in peace... that religion does change over time... Scary stuff to people invested in a specific religion.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III
what your pet really thinks of you...

They kill each other because they think the other is blasphemous. It would be kinda like if there was a certain group of people who believed what the divinci code said word for word. There would be a number who disagree, the problem could turn violent, but that leaves no reason to hate someone else. So it's not so unusual to hate someone who is basically insulting you and not hate the person who's ideals are so different that you can securely consider them wrong.

Ireland....

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It doesn't matter who we elect, it doesn't matter what they've done or who they've done, what is important is what they actually do. Too many politicians are politicians - they like to talk about useless issues and keep people in the dark about the real issue: money. I will always care more about what the government tells me I have to spend my money on, opposed to some unborn assassination. Freedom is the right to chose, on everything.

Past tense many years ago? Is that all you got?
What about the real present modern day world?

Even this doesn't describe how the same ethnic groups have managed to live in peace with one another at different times and different places.
The dislike they have for each other's beliefs only leads to violence when there is a power struggle.

There are neighborhoods in Iraq where people belonging to one sect have lived in peace with their neighbors... until the war led to all the ethnic fighting.
The same was true in India. Muslims and Hindus lived peacefully as neighbors in many areas until the revolution brought up the question of "Who gets to rule?" Then you saw violent segregation and the eventual creation of two nations that are only now starting to think about getting along.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III
what your pet really thinks of you...

The American education system fails again.

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It doesn't matter who we elect, it doesn't matter what they've done or who they've done, what is important is what they actually do. Too many politicians are politicians - they like to talk about useless issues and keep people in the dark about the real issue: money. I will always care more about what the government tells me I have to spend my money on, opposed to some unborn assassination. Freedom is the right to chose, on everything.

You appeasers and apologists are simply wrong, on many, many points, too many for me to spend the time correcting right now. Christians are irrelevant. They are harmless, not matter what crap is in their books. This is simply the facts on the ground.

muslims on the other hand are committing terrorism all over the world in MASSIVE numbers. And, their unholy texts call for and approve of it, which they cite as their reasons/justifications. Thats why you call them fundamentalists, because fundamentally they are the ones actually following their evil religion. They aren't misinformed about muhammed. He is their idol, their prophet, their role model. They know all about his evil but simply consider it good. Good is evil to a muslim and evil is good.

There is no evidence that most people that call themselves muslim do not support terrorism in one way or another and in fact all the evidence is to the contrary. The support for terrorism and evil are inherent in islam, because their role model was an evil terrorist. Until they will condemn him and terrorism and evil in general, they are evil, even if they haven't killed anyone directly, yet, just as nazi supporters who didn't kill directly were evil. They are simply playing you appeasers, apologists, and liberals for fools, allowing you to speak their nonsense propaganda while they continue to commit the acts of terorrism in the name you claim is peaceful. The democratic party is increasingly moving closer to Al Qaeda and almost speak the same platforms already. The stupid evil, filthy lies of islam are proving very effective with you and will destroy all freedom that "liberals" yap about but never back up.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

speaking of misapplied labels.

No one you call an "appeaser" has ever said any good about terrorists.
The difference is that some can seperate the terrorist from the particular batch of superstitions and rationalizations he subscribes to.

All your babbling about "evil religion" is moot once the religion adjusts to a civilized world. But I don't think you'll give it up. Why? Because you do throw in those who adapt to reality with those who carry on the "true religion" to justify their desires for power.
You'd actually be the one to call a peaceful Muslim a blasphemer for not being a suicide bomber... And you expect this will have some positive outcome?

You set your bar at a ridiculous level: destroy Islam.
Not gonna happen.
So then what? Reform it?
Sorry. You are an outsider. And you don't even have respect for the insiders. If anything you only reaffirm the ideas of the fundies in their heads.
Reform comes from the inside... not from you. Not from me.
And since you are unwilling to look at the conditions that actually make terrorism a working model... you're not even going to inspire any amount of reform.

How does it feel to be so powerless in your own obsessive crusade?

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III
what your pet really thinks of you...

You are sad, because you see that islam is in fact evil but want to ignore and it just hope it changes someday. Pathetic.

I say it, because it is the truth. You and people like you ignoring it won't make it go away. islam must be recognized for what it is, evil. If it reforms, great. But, it hasn't. And, your dreams that it will someday are simply irrelevant.

Baloney. I have repeatedly focused on defeating it, not destroying it. Destroying it would be better obviously, but I have repeatedly said it is impractical and not necessary for victory. You are setting up a straw man which is convenient for your holier than thou embrace of evil in the name of tolerance.

I think the war is going well actually overall and do not at all feel powerless.

__________________
Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.