The war for oil in Iraq? Yes, it's gone perfectly, as far as objective. Huge oil corporations now control, thanks to US military might, the ability to NOT pump oil, keeping it off the market and driving up costs and profit.

There is no war on Islam.

It is fairly frequent that I find the opportunity to inform people about muhammed and islam, in person. And, many people are completely unaware of the facts about muhammed being a child rapist pedophile, or having been an evil conqueror that started numerous wars to spread his cult, etc, etc. Most are astonished to hear how this "religion of peace" was actually started in violence and has spread through violence ever since. And most are glad to be informed, even I find many democrats and liberals. Many of which may not even quite see things clearly right away enough to support my full case but they move toward my position rapidly and will continue to do so as islam continues to escalate their stupid jihad making their evil abundantly clear.

Because after all, despite the apologists and appeasers fantasies, "radical islam" is on the rise, dramatically, all across the world. So, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that islam will ever reform itself and become peaceful. No, just as Germany and Japan had to be totally defeated in order to achieve reform, so to must islam.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

On the internet we don't need to worry about you killing us if we don't agree.

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It doesn't matter who we elect, it doesn't matter what they've done or who they've done, what is important is what they actually do. Too many politicians are politicians - they like to talk about useless issues and keep people in the dark about the real issue: money. I will always care more about what the government tells me I have to spend my money on, opposed to some unborn assassination. Freedom is the right to chose, on everything.

I don't think it's evil, as it does not automatically create evil.
Despite all your drama, most Muslims on earth are peaceful.
Not something to be sad about IMO... but then again I'm not the one invested in calling it evil.
Terrorism is evil and religion is false. Islam is one of the more annoying religions and the Islamic part of the world is more conducive to terrorism.
That's what I see.
As for the "hope"... I understand anthropology of religion. Religions change. Religions that fail to change die. Just like most other aspects of culture. It's not rocket science.
And if you note differences between the average American Muslim and the average Pakistani Muslim... you'll see that it happens.
But you don't. So what am I gonna do about it?


That's quite ridiculous.
So you'll see people who are Muslims and believe that, whether historically true or not, Muhammed believed in peace, will frown on violence and terror, and are on their way to becoming modern Westernesque types... and you have to point out that they are wrong about their religion.
I hate to break it to you but religion is myth. Period.
If people want to believe Muhammed was a talking duck, so it shall be. We do the same thing with our own history (real stuff, not old religious jargon). Abe Lincoln was no saint and we were not always so nice... but it doesn't matter much so long as we control our future history.
I have no cares as to what Muslims believe about their propht... but you know what? They're going to believe in him. That's how religion goes.
Holding that constant, I rather they believe he's a peaceful guy and start to emulate that. I'd rather that women of Islam start making those claims about alleged feminism within the religion. Why? Because if people start thinking in those terms... they will make it so.

Instead you prefer to try to make them beleive their prophet is a mad killer, that sexism is part of their religion, etc... In you're desire to destroy the religion, you trap the faithful in that box. You apparently want them to continue being medeival so you can continue to have an enemy.



Defeat. Destroy. Same difference. I suppose the only real change between the words is that "defeat" allows you to redefine the terms as necessary (which ironically is much how religion changes).
And who exactly started the thread with the word "destroy"?
You set up your own strawman. Quit crying.



So you will quit complaining when the Muslims of the world are no longer living in anarchic gang violence?
I'll believe it when I see it.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

So were most of the nazis.

This is merely a difference of the numbers as a percentage of the total population. There is no difference in the religion, the ideology:

I am an agnostic objectivist. So, you are not speaking to a "believer."

Your theory would make more sense if I had a problems with muslims before 9.11. I did not. Until 9.11 I was ignorant of islam's inherent drive to conquest and terrorism. I knew they seemed to commit a lot of terrorism, but not that they do it because their hero and unholy books tell them to. That changes things.

Well, tough to argue with someone who simply ignores distinctions between words and concepts. We defeated the Germans and Japanese. Did we destroy them? Whatever. But, you can't criticize me for your interpretations of words at the same time knowing our interpretations are different. In fact, I never "invested" in any one strategy or word, other than victory.

Very clumsy of you. I didn't start the thread, so I didn't chose the word destroy.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

What do you define as a Nazi?
The active members of the party?
People who joined the party because they feared for their lives otherwise?
People who lived under the reign of the Nazis?

In any case religion and the Nazi ideology were not the same. Most of the people who were Nazis under all but the first choice... ceased to be Nazis after the regime fell.

Do you honestly believe that Muslims will stop being Muslims after the self-proclaimed leaders fall?



I realize that you may have trouble remembering all the many people who you end up arguing with, but I've seen this article before and responded. It took up a lot of time and space.
And my view has not changed.



"Objectivism" eh? You don't need to have a God to have blind faith in something.
Interestingly Rand's works themselves have many of the same qualities as a mythos... and the followers many of the same qualities as religionists (not all the same qualities, but some).

Either way it's irrelevant. Religion is still made up of myth.




How does this change anything?
So you did not start until you had a vendetta. And?



Explain how a nation-state is in anyway similar to an ideology that is pretty well decentralized and spread amongst over a billion people in different lands and based in religious principle and faith rather than in rule of law.
I believe you can defeat a nation-state. It's pretty hard not to believe that.
But define the "defeat" of a religion.



Good catch. I suppose I get all the people I argue with mixed up too (it's not like the arguments ever seem to change from person to person).
Sorry then.

So I guess as far as you are concerned I'll stick with attacking this notion of "defeat".
I'm not sure that term is really getting us any closer to anything.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

There are some key points that need to be addressed.

Yes, it is true not all Muslims are violent. However, it is also true that all Muslims want to see the world governed by Sharia. A Muslim does not exist who renounces this core concept of Islam. Some, such as CAIR and other organizations financed by the Muslim Brotherhood, seek to do this by changing the laws and opinions of people peacefully. But they still do not want a free and open society where people can drink beer and women can dress like human beings.

It is also true that no Muslim exists who views Islam on equal footing with any other faith. To all Muslims, peaceful or violent, Islam must have primacy over all other religions. This also is a core tenet of their faith.

Now, while there are peaceful Muslims, there is no question that the average Muslim has no problem with other people using violence on behalf of their religion. Very few Imam's criticized the murderer of Theo Van Gogh, for example. So, while they may not engage in violence themselves, they understand that Mohammed himself used violence to defend his faith, and to condemn such behavior would be contrary to Islam.

My point was that as an agnostic objectivist, I agree. I am not a Randian but rather an objectivist. But Randians in no accurate way could be considered religious. This again demonstrates your trouble distinguishing between different concepts and words.

Read more carefully please. As I said, it was after 9.11 that I read the quran and discovered that these people really do represent islam correctly, these terrorists, true believers. This changes everything, for anyone with any sense.

We defeated the ideologies behind hitler and Japan, not just the nation-states. The same is necessary here. I would declare victory based on numerous different but acceptable results. But, the most likely is simply a surrender of the islamic goals of enforcing their patheticly stupid and totally evil ideology on the West, or at least America. The war is going to get much, much bigger before this happens. This WWIII has barely started in fact.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

Eleanor called Muslims "scum" at one point.

No one said anything about an imminent threat. And, for my part, I am not advocating bombing anyone. However, I do believe that networks that censored the Danish cartoons because of fear of Muslim reaction are surrendering some of our most basic rights. This is my concern.

You also did not meet a single Muslim who did not view you as a kafir.

I suggest you keep your advice to yourself.

1. Sharia Law in the interpretation of more modern Muslims tends to be oppressive to Muslims, as only Muslims are held to it. I'd still oppose it as it would give Muslims less-than-human rights and it would really screw over Muslims who wanted to convert (especially those born into the religion).
2. You really think there are NO Muslims who are against Sharia Law? I wouldn't want to be the one making that claim, as it has been proven false in polls... and by the existence of secular liberal Muslims... Perhaps not many. But there are some who oppose it, more in some places than others (not surprisingly, more modern places with more well-off Muslims have more opposition).
3. It is highly unlikely that any country that is not majority Muslim would ever allow Sharia Law. In the US, it would in fact be struck down as unconstitutional the moment any Muslim challenges the death sentence aimed at him for converting.
Also I don't buy for a second that any Westerner is willing to allow that law to affect him/her at all. If anything some Europeans might allow Muslims to have their own little communities with Sharia Law.
4. If Muslim countries have Sharia Law... so what? If they are democratically controlled then they will go through the same kind of civil rights battles every other democracy went through and remove it bit by bit. And if they don't... well I guess they'll just suffer brain drain as those who would break it flee to avoid punishment.

I've yet to meet a religionist at all, short of a Unitarian, who believes all religions are on the same footing as theirs (even Unitarians think they have a better understanding than others).
This is why no religion should be tied to a state...
But we do not have say over what other nations do.

Define average. The polls show that a mode might believe "there are sometimes when suicide bombing might be allowable to defend the religion"... whatever the hell that means.
It's also worth noting that as terrorists kill more and more members of their own faith... people of Islam are supporting violence less and less.

Of course the 800 pound gorilla in the room is Israel... That's the main area where people see violence as justified... That's where the problem is.
Solve the problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians... and you'll see terrorism plummet.
Not suggesting that it is easy (not even sure it's possible at this point in time) but that's the real kicker... and it's not as much about religion as it is power and identity.

__________________
"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III