I never said that at all and do not want that.

Yes, I would support that as necessary, until the muslims stop their global jihad. Letting them in our country to commit terrorism and undermine our culture with their barbarity and idiocy is simply foolish. We can pursue trying to reform them in iraq without letting them come here.

__________________
Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

My friend...apologies for the insanity comment.

Seriously...

Take a look at Human history...

not Muslim history exclusively

War has been a constant factor on this Globe since the first Cave "dude" kept a cave diary.

This is the Nature of Man.

The ONLY way to transcend this Nature is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior..
of course many folks think any Religion is insanity.

The BLUF (bottom line up front)

We're all pretty much crazy....

Enjoy the roller coaster ride that is the Human Condition!

I don't think war is the only answer. I think education and discussion is. I think the West needs to actively question a lot of the religious tenets of Islam, much in the same way as it has questioned the tenets of Christianity that were oppressive and harmful. It can do so with the truth, and it can do so by defending our own values fiercely. Perhaps sometimes that will mean violence and conflict. Hopefully, for the most part, it will not.

If we stopped allowing muslims in our countries until they really do become peaceful, there would be much less need for violence. We wouldn't need to stay on the offensive as we do now in order to protect ourselves. And, we really wouldn't need to build democracies or reform islam at all- just keep them away from us.

__________________
Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

That would only work in the short term. Their ideology will not have changed one iota, since they will still be practicing Islam in a community that supports the very practices the West objects to. In time, the West might decline, and Dar al-Islam become more powerful, and, were that the case, war would be at our doorstep regardless of whether we wanted it or not.

The muslims will always desire war. That doesn't change the available options. We can kill them until they stop their stupid jihad, force them to reform, or we can kick them out of our countries if and until islam really becomes and proves itself peaceful and capable of joining civilization.

I am fine with all the above strategies.

__________________
Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

Muslim countries dont desire war, any more than christians. In recent history say last 200 years christain countries are the ones on expansionistic conquests across the world. WWI & WWII was not a muslim conflict. Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan all countries under foreign occupation from predominantly christain countries. Modern slavery was started by christian countries. In the last 1000 years there has been 15 or more christain crusades into muslim territories opposed to the few the muslims started. Napoleon was christian, nazis had close ties to the catholic church, both whom tried to take over the world. England who conquered 25% of the world is christian. Pinochet, Nicolae Ceausescu, Mussolini, Porfirio Diaz, along with alot more are all christain dictators. Dont forget the hundreds of thousands of mesoamericans who got decapitated for not converting to christianity. The KKK was a predominantly christian organization. It seems to me you spend your time dissing Islam while ignoring Christianities tendancy to be as violent as your trying to depict Islam. And dont act like Islamic culture hasnt contributed to civilization they are the founders of what we now call capitalism.

This is an excellent post and very true....

I WOULD argue that in recent years the Muslim extremists are the ones doing the instigating when it comes to global conflicts, however people act like WW2 was some lifetime ago, but in the grand scheme of things it really wasn't long ago and that certainly wasn't a Muslim war.


I still feel that overall religion does more good than bad....But plenty of evil has been done in the name of religion. Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc etc...They all have blood on their hands.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, most Muslim countries did not have the economic means to expand on a global scale. This is not to say that there were not wars and conflict in Muslim lands.

Arabs and Muslims took sides and fought in WWII just like everyone else. What do you think Rommell was doing in North Africa? Or Lawrence of Arabia before him?

Agaiin, they were occupying not because they were Christian, but because they were more economically developed. The Ottomans had no problem conquering people's territory, nor did the Mamluk Sultans. They just lacked the means to do so.

Not true. The Ottomans had a flourishing slave trade up intil 1870. And many of the black slaves who were handed to Southern slavers were sold by Muslims in North Africa.

Check your history. The Crusades came about due to Muslim/Turkish expansion into Asia Minor, which was Byzantine land. After the battle of Manzikert, the Byzantine emperor requested aid from the Pope.

Well, since all those are historical figures, and since I can easily list at least 20 Islamic living counterparts who either support terror, or are dictators, or who are terrorists themselves, I'd say your argument doesn't have much merit.

Im not suggesting Muslim countries dont have war or conflict, Im merely demonstrating how Christian countries have a tendancy to be violent as well.


Actually Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel is a German born and raised. He lead the German army into North Africa, again instigated by Germans not Muslims. And Thomas Edward Lawrence was a british soldier born in North Wales to an Anglo-Irish father. Infact he was educated at Jesus College, Oxford. But I do admit Muslim countries were involved but only to a limited extent. Again Im not implying Islam is better or less violent, than Christianity, but that the opposite isnt true either.


Now I never stated Ottamans have problems invading people or that they are a benevolent culture. Im just noting how Christian countries (regardless or reason or justification) do the same actions they condemn Islam of doing.



That is true, and I retract the comment about modern slavery being started by Christians, because thats irrelevant since almost every great civilization has had a flourishing slave trade. I apologize for singling out Christianity.


Only the first Crusade was started because of that reason. And note that after they regained the territories they took it a step further and sieged Jerusalem then ''massacred the civilians, destroyed mosques and pillaged the city.'' The second crusade was instigated by preachers calling for the down fall of Islam. The third crusade was started by pope Gregory VIII. The forth was started by pope Innocent III and so on. All may not have been instigated by Christians, but to ignore the fact that Christians do have a historical tendancy to be as aggressive as Islam seems naive. Ive done a thesis on the Crusades and believe me their both as guilty, so your attempt to make it seem that the Christians did it in defence falls short.

So because you can name 20 Islamic counterparts that means my arguement doesnt have merit? It seems to me your ignoring my arguement completely. Im not trying so say Christianity is evil or that Islam is being bullied, but that Christianity and Islam are two sides of a coin. I just noted a few things that demonstrate how Christianity isnt THAT different than Islam. So to single out Islam as a religion that needs to be destroyed has absolutely no historical or intellectual justification.

P.S. I appreciate you trying to take my arguement apart its healthy to question once believes.