Agreed. My problem is not with you only quoting part of the text; my problem is with you presenting the quotes as meaning something they don't mean. When you quote, you're responsible for making sure the meaning is presented accurately.

You'll also note that I didn't have to quote the entire Koran (or even an entire Sura) in order to provide the context of the quotes.

I don't blame you for the mistranslations; though I would expect you to be careful from now on knowing that mistranslations exist. The mistranslation of "Fitna", for example, substantially changes the meanings of quite a few verses.

But I do blame you for presenting these quotes as meaning something they don't. The context is available in English, as I've demonstrated.

But you're mistaking the self-justification of extremists for actual fact. You wouldn't do that in any other case; why would you do that with the Koran?

You admit that the extremists might be misinterpreting the verses, then say that doesn't change the fact that Islam is violent.

It's certainly important to understand where the extremists are coming from. That's a far different thing than attacking the religion they have hijacked for their self-justification. Understanding the Bible might help one understand adherents of Christian Identity; it does not make Christianity a white-supremacist religion.

This is utter nonsense, unless by "personally" you mean "with his own hands" -- which is a ridiculous standard. You could claim the same about any murderer in a U.S. prison.

Counting *only* Jews, Hitler killed 6 million people. There probably weren't 6 million people *total* living in the Middle East in Muhammad's time.

So? The point remains.

I've already addressed this. You're simply wrong. He is a model, not a commandment. You don't see most Muslims hurrying out and marrying 9-year-olds, do you?

If Islam merely reflected the greed of a bloodthirsty conqueror, I'd agree. It doesn't. The guy managed to come up with a religion that, in modern interpretation, is better than he was.

I just don't consider them authoritative, the way the Koran is. They're simply stories, mostly unsubstantiated, about Muhammed's life and the lives of his followers. Muslims revere them as illustrations of Koranic tenets, but they're contradictory and there is disputes over which are valid. The key thing is that when push comes to shove the Koran trumps them.

I dealt with this in an answer to PatriotNews, above. Child brides were a cultural norm at the time and for centuries afterwards. I gave examples of Byzantine empresses being married off at ages ranging from 8 to 12. Criticizing Muhammed for not conforming to modern attitudes in that regard is just plain silly.

This is a reflection on the follower, not the religion. Marrying nine-year-olds is not a commandment or tenet of Islam.

Uh-huh. Shall I go through the Bible and show the prophets and kings with young brides, multiple wives, slaves, etc.?

This, simply put, is an intellectually bankrupt criticism. Muhammed was a prophet *for his time*. Criticizing him for conforming to the cultural mores of his day, rather than those that hold sway now, 1,400 years later, is illogical.

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Man up.

And David Koresh was a prophet for his time:

http://www.davidkoresh.net/

There will always be Waco wackos who will follow stupid cults...Islam is just the largest of them.

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We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. -- Ann Coulter

That's a fine opinion. Just forgive me for not taking it very seriously, seeing as how you've explicitly said you have no interest in actually learning about Islam before you criticize it.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm agnostic. I think there is plenty of room to criticize all religions, Islam included. I just don't think that includes sweeping statements from ignorance, or selective quotations that don't mean what the quoter thinks they mean.

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Man up.

I'm curious to know why you have such obvious enmity and hatred with one of God's religions? do you watch FOX news a lot?

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Why does my heart cry? Feelings I can't fight...

The peace loving muslims need to stand up and be counted and take back their religeon. Until then many people have no interest in learning about a culture/religeon that supports beheadings and strapping bombs on 10 year old kids.

They have. If you're not aware of it, you're simply not paying attention.
http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2006/11...e-muslims.html
http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2006/11...s-part-ii.html
http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2007/04...-part-iii.html
http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2007/05...m-silence.html
http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2006/08...iled-plot.html

One might argue that that's a reason to learn *more*, not bury one's head in the sand. You can't effectively fight what you don't understand.

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Man up.

I don't. Islam is not one of God's religions. It is a homicidal political cult disguised as a religion as I have said many times over in this thread. The reason for the animosity is all the death, terrorism, massacres, wars, abuses, and mayhem being perpetrated by some of its followers, and the tacit approval of the rest of its followers.

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We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. -- Ann Coulter

You are talking about the past with Western society and the present with islamic society. But, yes, I will call anyone that takes 9 year old brides a pedophile and rapist. muhammed set a precedent and since none of the evil things he did are possibly wrong in the eyes of muslims, taking child brides is perfectly acceptable to islam NOW. Further, if you are a non-muslim, muhammed authorized rape, of whatever age the victim happens to be.

Thats your opinion. In the videos I linked, NUMEROUS "muslim scholars" were on MAINSTREAM arab television saying these exact quotes I listed to justify jihad and terrorism. The arab speaking terrorists quote the same words to justify their actions. You do not speak arabic. Therefore, you simply trust in your translation out of faith, a funny position for an agnostic.

That is correct. Whatever muhammed's words "really" mean,muslims around the world interpret them as ordering the things discussed. That is the reality of islam today.

muhammed committed cold blooded murder by his own hands. That was my point. islam's perfect man is a cold blooded murdering, thieving, raping, warmongering, totalatarian, nutcase. His ideloogy and perfect example spawned a religion, if you want to call it that, that has been waging war on the world ever since. The worldwide casualties in the war against islamofascism FAR exceed the total losses of WWI and WWII combined.

I see no point whatsoever. You admit Christ hurt no one, point out that people worship him, admit muhammed was a murdering conquerer and people worship him and then draw some kind of bizarre parallel somehow?

I don't see how you can keep saying this. muhammed is the messenger of allah to the muslims. His are the words of God. To muslims, everything he did was perfect and anything he said is correct. Does it mean all muslims have to marry at 9? No, because thats not what muhammed said. He just said they could if they wanted. And, you are wrong. Its COMMON with the muslims still today, as is beatings of women, female genital mutilation, etc. They certainly do model his behavior, proudly.

Thats simply hilarious. It wouldn't be difficult to be better than muhammed, thats for sure. I suppose islam might be a little better than its founder. Not every muslim is as nuts as their perfect man I guess or maybe has the opportunity to be as nuts.

You are simply wrong. The muslims do not see it that way. I doubt you could find a single muslim to say such a thing though muhammed does tell them to lie or do anything to deceive the infidels about their goals of conquest. Clearly, a muslim saying muhammed is only a prophet of his time is committing "blasphemy" and would have their heads cut off in most muslim lands, if not all. You are applying YOUR viewpoint to islam's view of muhammed, a classic western liberal mistake. THEY consider him PERFECT, a PERFECT example, the primary PROPHET, the speaker of ALLAH's words. But, yes, it is illogical, just as muhammed was. Times change but good and evil haven't. A true leader or prophet would know good from evil in ANY time.

But basically, you have ceded my entire argument, despite claiming I am doing poorly. You have ceded muhammed was a violent conquerer and that to be peaceful muslims from turn away from his example and commands. This was my point all along. By turning away from muhammed's example and words, they would by definition no longer be muslim. But, if you want to claim they are "reformed muslims" or make up a new name for the ideology, thats fine. But, when you claim they have already done so, abandoned muhammed, you are flat out wrong. They defend him, love, follow him, and therefore are terrorists.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

It is not the same thing as having sex with a nine year old now! I am not saying having sex with a 9 yo is acceptable, but 1500 years ago it was common for girls to get married at 12. The average life-span was only in the late 30s so the idea of sex with a 9 year old now is really disgusting, but for the time it was not as bad!

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R.I.P. Molly, I miss you every day!!

Im a Tarte, what! you want some of this?


And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. Thomas Jefferson

And this has been my point all along. We didn't kill every Nazi in Germany to end Nazism, and we don't have to kill every muslim in the world to end Islamism.

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We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. -- Ann Coulter