Yes, you made that clear. Some "liberal" westerners are simply unwilling to face the truth. To admit islam is evil would mean their ideas that if the West is simply tolerant enough then they will leave us alone are false. To question that faith would destroy their entire worldview. It would mean they would have to support the military industrial complex, a strong defense, would mean there is little point in talking to everybody (enemies) if talking really wasn't going to change anything, means they can't spend as much on the welfare state because of the higher cost of freedom, etc, etc. Just as our victory in the Cold War proved they were wrong all along about the need to appease the USSR and wrong that a strong military isn't vital, so too the islamofascists will prove liberalism to be simply idealism in the face of facts- completely irrational and self destructive.

The war will be won based on will. We face a culturally, technologically, intellectually, and militarily inferior enemy whose greatest strength is sneak attacks, hiding, and their own impotence. The more trouble they cause, the more boot they are going to get in the face. These are just the facts of life. As the Marines say "Get 'em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow." The more the islamofascists see unquestioning strength in response to provocation, rather that the liberal enemy propaganda, the more they will resign themselves to their fair due and focus on maintaining their own power over their own lands and ability abuse women, gays, infidels, etc at will there. This has always been the way of things. People once said japan would fight to the last man, woman, and child before abandoning its emporer, until we kicked the crap out of them. NO appeasement or apologism should take place as this merely encourages their insane jihad causing more deaths on both sides. By showing strength now, as we should have shown to hitler for years to deter him, we can defeat the ideology and achieve peace, without killing all of them- just a lot of them.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

How do you know they are false? We have never tried leaving them alone, and treating them with respect! How can you say something which has never occurred failed?

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R.I.P. Molly, I miss you every day!!

Im a Tarte, what! you want some of this?


And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. Thomas Jefferson

Ditto! Right back to where I started:

I don't know how much more tolerance I can take before it kills me.

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We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. -- Ann Coulter

I have stayed away from these forums for awhile, but when I see something simplified down to such a naive and ridiculous argument based on false or deceiptful premises, it was hard to stay away.

Speaking as if there is no alternative to your statement, you make it quite clear that the Christian nations are on the defensive, which is a simplification of history and people's to their very basics. Had you said the Christian orthodox Byzantine empire was on the defensive, I would agree, because it was under attack by the Seljuk turks. But what actually started the Crusades was not the denial of access to the holy lands to pilgrims, a false and perpetuated piece of propaganda used by the Catholic church to spur on followers against islam. What actually happened, if you are actually interested in History and not in your hate mongering, was that one Fatimid Caliphate ordered the destruction of many of the churches and synogogues in the middle east and africa one of which was the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. In that brief period of destruction, many pilgrims were found and caught in the Turk lands and executed. But promptly afterward, pilgrims were again allowed to visit holy shrines.

However, none of that actually CAUSED the crusades. What actually CAUSED the Crusades was the pleas by the Byzantine Emperors to the Catholic Pope for help against the advancing waves of Turkish forces. However, the Crusades never really aimed at retaking the land for the Byzantine Empire, but instead of taking lands from the Seljuk Turks and later the Fattimihds and creating entirely new Kingdoms, thus the Crusades (which were propagandized as an attempt to defend Christian religion) were actually an offensive attack to take lands from Muslim kingdoms.

Actually Mohammeds life is shrouded in mystery and mythology. Although many events were recorded as having happened, the validity of these events actually occuring is unsure by many historians. What is known is that Mohammed was most likely an epileptic and he began a religion that sought to unify Arabia from its small provincial kingdoms, through religion if possible, by force if necessary. You could also argue that almost all religious institutions have been created of controlling subjects and attaining power. Although its possible that Mohammed was a meglomaniac, unlike other mythologized people such as Buddha and Jesus, it doesn't change the fact that he was able to start a conquest that swept throughout the Middle East.

His teachings however do not reflect anything "perverse" if you had actually studied any actual Koranic text and not after-the-fact texts that belong to small sects of islam that are not regarded as holy script. Instead, you chose a cowardly way to attack a religion that promotes peace instead of war, but does advocates violence in some respects just as the bible advocates aspects of violence if you selectively pick and chose.

So your shameless attack on Islam is nothing short of an intolerant and hateful speech that argues a form of rhetoric nothing short of Hitler's speeches against Jews.

If your argument had any real basis in the real world, your appeal might be more far reaching, but your lack of understanding of Islam as well as Sharia and its modern application throughout the real world is nothing short of pure ignorance.

Yes, Islam has strong connections between religion and state through the designation of Sharia (in some states) but in theory so does Judaism which applies itself to the real world through God's law. Your general analysis of the Muslim world fails to incorporate actual islamic states that practice the full extent of Sharia, and you would be hard-pressed to find any since they don't exist. The only one that has moderately existed has been Afghanistan under the Taliban, and even that was even harsher than Sharia through practices of tribal customs that are only native to that area of the world.

Your analysis also misses the aspect of more secular states, or secular states that once existed that did not apply Islam to their politics but continue to practice Islam as a religion: Nasser's Egypt, Modern Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco, United Arab Emirates and others.

Your extreme prejudice towards this religion seems to stem from an ignorance and fear of this ever-so popular, and growing belief in something you feel uncomfortable toward. I suggest a deep analysis of Islam or having a muslim friend might teach you the values of this interesting yet deeply contraversial religion.

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Signature:

Anyway was the end of my statement. You know like, we should love our enemies despite what they have done to us.

How does that apply to this discussion? This verse belongs in an economic discussion.

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"Masters of War" by Bob Dylan
"When a man assumes public trust, he should consider himself as public property"
-Thomas Jefferson
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-Albert Einstein
"One man with courage is a majority"
-Thomas Jefferson

So... you are proposing that we show Muslims that they will not achieve their goals through violence, by... using violence. If anything, wouldn't that show them that violence is the way to achieve their goals?

I brought up Christianity for two reasons. First to show that, from a sectarian standpoint, no one religion is more evil than any other. In other words, though all false religions are considered evil by whichever true religion someone claims, most religions advocate very similar things. Second, to point out the moral conflict that faces Christian Conservatives who advocate eliminating Islam by killing Muslims. Instead they should want to send missionaries to Islamic countries and show them Jesus' love. But that's far too inconvenient to the Reaganites' three leg stool of conservatism.

__________________
"Masters of War" by Bob Dylan
"When a man assumes public trust, he should consider himself as public property"
-Thomas Jefferson
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-Albert Einstein
"One man with courage is a majority"
-Thomas Jefferson

Ummm... We havn't killed Nazism.

American Nazi Party

So, I don't really understand how you plan to eradicate Islam.

__________________
"Masters of War" by Bob Dylan
"When a man assumes public trust, he should consider himself as public property"
-Thomas Jefferson
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-Albert Einstein
"One man with courage is a majority"
-Thomas Jefferson

masterproctor, welcome to the discussion. Your ideological ally raytri has been doing a very good job of making a similar case as you and I have appreciated his assistance in making my case. I welcome your contributions in the pursuit of truth on the matter. I assume you have read the thread so I will labor not to repeat myself.

So, burning churches and synagogues in the "holy land" is not denying access? I happen to be interested in history by the way.

Geez- what enlightened butchers.

I see we are at least starting from the same point as with raytri. We all concede muhammed was a murdering meglomaniac (good word) of a conquerer.

<sarcasm>I see. This murdering, meglemaniac of a conquering rapist thug was quite a writer I guess.</sarcasm>

Agreed. As soon as Orthodox Jews start blowing people up over enforcing their crazy laws on people, I will start fighting them as well.

No, Turkey is the only one on your list NOT YET supporting the thesis that islam is inherently violent. And, they have, for now, rejected an islamic state. The rest are all currently being fought over by the islamofascists and the forces of good. Turkey is indeed a remarkable exception. Its a very good point.

Very boring. I could care less about their silly religion. As soon as they stop their jihad, they can go back to hanging gays, raping their women, etc, etc without our interference. That is the responsibility of THEIR society to deal with. But, don't complain about our interference when you are emigrating to OUR countries, voting in OUR elections, and BOMBING our buildings because I will kill you (not you obviously) and I will vote for the politician that most favors killing you.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

No, they are not. There are like 500 kazillion muslims and they could easily eradicate terrorism and stand up to barbarism but they are not.

How many arab nations are fighting alongside us in Afghanistan? And how many of their troops are actually there on the ground?

I really hate long posts, so let me just see if I can find a map or two here...





So anyone can in fact see from the above maps that the muslims did in fact invade Christian held territories and the Middle East and Europe. So the Crusades were attempting to get the Holy Lands back from the Muslims. Yes, they did intend to create new Kingdoms as incentives to those who were fighting and because it was an arduous task for Christians to defend the far off Holy Lands from Europe. So what?
I'm not going to argue with you over whether or not Mohammad was a nice guy, an epileptic or a pervert. I don't care at this point. The map shows above that they invaded those areas and forced their "religion" on the peoples of those lands.

As for the present, I don't know where you have been the last 20 to 30 years, but I have seen so many indiscriminant massacres at the hands of the faithful followers of Islam that I can't even come close to remembering them all. This is not a religion, let alone a religion of peace. All the other garbage you espoused above means nothing to me. Let's see some protest amongst the followers of the religion of peace against all this murder and mayhem!

Islamist have been attacking Israel for the last 60 years, killing Jews worldwide for being Jews. I like Jews. I think Jews are great; they are my brothers and we worship a common God. And you are comparing me to Hitler? You must have bumped your head!

You say my lack of understanding...is nothing short of pure ignorance in one paragraph and then say, "actual islamic states that practice the full extent of Sharia, and you would be hard-pressed to find any since they don't exist," in the next.

Got some news for you friend:



Well the last statement is just fraught with so many fallacies I wouldn't know were to begin. I suggest a deep analysis of your own conscience might teach you the reasons why would find it necessary to defend this murderous Islamic ideological political cult disguised as a religion.

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We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. -- Ann Coulter