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  #811 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:11 AM
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That 700 years younger logic doesn't make sense to me. That would mean Mormons and Scientologists are even younger and it would just be ok for them to be violent for another 1000+ years and we shouldn't hold it against them cause other religions went through that too?
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  #812 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Questerr View Post
Okay I'm finally going to take a stab at the following:

I want to see scripture proving that Mohammad murdered anyone. If he killed them in war, then it is not murder. Who did he murder in cold blood?

And prove how he was a "terrorist". If he was a terrorist when all he ever did was lead real armies in combat and fight on the open field, then he was not a terrorist. Rather he was quite the opposite.
Muhammad ordered the murder of Asma bt. Marwan, a Jewish poetess when she was suckling her babies.–Ibn Ishaq, p.676, ibn sa’d, vol. ii, p.30-31.

Muhammad ordered the assassination of Abu Afak, a 120-year-old man of Medina.–Ibn Ishaq, p.675, ibn Sa’d, vol.ii, p.31

Muhammad hired a professional killer to assassinate Ka’b b. al-Ashraf, a poet of Medina.–Sahih Bukhari, 5.59.369

Muhammad’s followers murdered Abu Rafi, a critic of Muhammad in Medina.–Tabari, vol.vii, p.103, Sahih Bukhari, 5.59.371 and Sufyan ibn Khalid.–Ibn Ishaq, p.664-665, ibn Sa’d, vol.ii, p.60

Muhammad beheaded between 600-900 Jews of B. Qurayzah who did not fight Muslims but were attacked, and they had surrendered unconditionally–Tabari, vol.viii, ch. B. Qurayzah; Heykal, ch. the Campaign of Khandaq and B. Qurayzah, ibn Ishaq, ch. B. Qurayzah

Muhammad’s hired a man to kill Al-Yusayr b. Rizam at a party of Khaybar Jews at al-Qarqara.–Ibn Ishaq, p.665-666
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  #813 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kazan View Post
Yeah it spread in 100 years but I think the time line pretty much shows what was conqured in 100 years. Jesus had 12 appostles, he didn't walk everywhere and spread Christianity but it still spread. The Pope didn't go eveywhere but Christianity still spread. The message was spread.
Yes, and when it spread, it split. Have you heard of a place called Ireland?

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Originally Posted by Kazan View Post
The split in Islam occured because of a murder ( kind of ironic)


"Ali is the central figure at the origin of the Shia / Sunni split which occurred in the decades immediately following the death of the Prophet in 632. Sunnis regard Ali as the fourth and last of the "rightly guided caliphs" (successors to Mohammed (pbuh) as leader of the Muslims) following on from Abu Bakr 632-634, Umar 634-644 and Uthman 644-656. Shias feel that Ali should have been the first caliph and that the caliphate should pass down only to direct descendants of Mohammed (pbuh) via Ali and Fatima, They often refer to themselves as ahl al bayt or "people of the house" [of the prophet].

When Uthman was murdered while at prayer, Ali finally succeeded to the caliphate. Ali was, however, opposed by Aisha, wife of the Prophet (pbuh) and daughter of Abu Bakr, who accused him of being lax in bringing Uthman's killers to justice. After Ali's army defeated Aisha's forces at the Battle of the Camel in 656, she apologized to Ali and was allowed to return to her home in Madinah where she withdrew from public life."

http://www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm

Again refer to the quran for specifics on forced conversion.

I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't going to change mine, so I'll leave this

Some ideas out live there usefullness
I've never said Islam wasn't violent. I've simply directed you towards the first amendment and said that according to that, Islam should not be destroyed. Should they be allowed to hurt others? No. Should they be destroyed? No. Are you obsessed with shaming Islam? Seems like it. Give it up. Things like this cause religious war.
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  #814 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
Yes, and when it spread, it split. Have you heard of a place called Ireland?

I've never said Islam wasn't violent. I've simply directed you towards the first amendment and said that according to that, Islam should not be destroyed. Should they be allowed to hurt others? No. Should they be destroyed? No. Are you obsessed with shaming Islam? Seems like it. Give it up. Things like this cause religious war.
Maybe a better word would be to De-Program them, kinda like the De-nazification in Germany after WWII.
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  #815 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kazan View Post
Maybe a better word would be to De-Program them, kinda like the De-nazification in Germany after WWII.
lol good luck. I'm American. If you can't De-program me, good luck trying to deprogram someone who can nukes. Just tell me when you start so I can move to Canada.
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Old 04-25-2008, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kazan View Post
Maybe a better word would be to De-Program them, kinda like the De-nazification in Germany after WWII.
dude, you can't even convince me, as a moderate iranian muslim. good luck with arab radical muslims!!
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  #817 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
I've simply directed you towards the first amendment and said that according to that, Islam should not be destroyed. Should they be allowed to hurt others? No. Should they be destroyed? No. Are you obsessed with shaming Islam? Seems like it. Give it up. Things like this cause religious war.
I'll stand behind you for that. Our country gives us and them the freedom of religion. It is very annoying though to see Christianity and Jud to be constantly attacked with words, physical acts, and amendments without supported defense and now Islam has also recently started to try and impose itself on our laws.

Although Islam has its right to be I wish it were gone as I believe it is the false religion with the false prophet that has been said by Christianity to conquer the world and kill all who refuse to convert. I wouldn't be surprised if Muhammed is the actual anti-Christ that is already here while others wait for him to come, and his religion is set to conquer and kill those who refuse it. And of course when Christ comes back and Muslims say they know and follow him he would say he never knew them. It is said that many many people will claim they follow Christ and be denied when he returns and I believe those to be Muslims.
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Kazan View Post
The point is show me the scripture that justifies it, or commands Christians to do what was done. If there is no scripture instructing Christians to do such things then it was done on their own account, Christianity had nada, zip, zilch to do with it.
The B'rit Hadasha, or "New Testament" we have today, was heavily influenced in it's text by the prevailing politics of it's day, as is true of most ancient text. What you are saying is that the bloodletting that was historically carried out by Christians was not done as a written edict, and you are correct, so far as the canonized gospels and epistles are concerned. Islam's, on the other hand, was.
What we call "Christianity" was a sect of Judaism that was formed and established by the friends and followers of Rabbi Y'Shua (Jesus, of Nazareth). They were living under Roman subjugation. The original belief around Meshiach (Messiah), and in this case, Rabbi Y'Shua, is that he was going to lead the revolt that would utterly vanquish the enemies of the Jews once and for all. The objective was to bring peace into the world.
There was no reason to attack Jews who did not believe. They would pay later, if they didn't assist in the revolt. To attack non-Jews without the leadership of Meshiach would have been foolhardy, since no victory would have been guaranteed.
Seeing that Rabbi Y'Shua did not return and destroy the Romans, nor any other enemies of Judaism for that matter, the sect, through various (and sometimes violent) twists and turns in history, eventually evolved into the ostensibly "peaceful," non-Jewish religion we know it as today. Rabbi Y'Shua is now Jesus, the soul saver.
Conversely, under Islam it was believed that Muhammad was himself "the one who was to come" who would vanquish the enemies of the People of The Book, and to lay to waste infidels. Not posthumously, as with Rabbi Y'Shua, nor some other person in the unforeseeable future. The objective was to bring peace into the world.
Seeing that Muhammad's objective was also not accomplished (neither he nor his followers have out killed the non-believers), the concept of Mahdi (Redeemer of Islam) has risen. This concept of a peaceful, Islamic Redeemer has not yet fully caught on in the Islamic world.
That said, people of any and all religions, to this day, resort to bloodshed, given what they believe to be just cause. And peace, unfortunately, ironically, appears to be cause enough.
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  #819 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 02:46 PM
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Maybe a better word would be to De-Program them, kinda like the De-nazification in Germany after WWII.
Of course, this is what we are all talking about when we talk about destroying/defeating islam. As has been said repeatedly in the thread, Naziism was defeated without killing all Nazis, let alone all the white Aryans let alone all the German people. The same is true here. The ideology must be defeated. This will require the death of many muslims but not all of them. Just as the experts said Japan would never give up their emperor and embrace democracy, the muslims can and will eventually give up islam for Western democracy and freedom. But, first you must "get 'em by the balls" as the Marines say and then "their hearts and minds will follow." There is no middle path. islam has no tolerance for the other, for anything but itself. Since it is an inferior idea to the sum total of the billions of the different ideas and philosophies of the West, it can not win. It is doomed to defeat. The only question is how many people will have to die to finally end the ability of this utterly contemptible "religion" called islam to spread its ignorance, evil, and destruction.

Those who defend islam as they defend any other "religion" or idea are doing the world and themselves a great disservice. islam is totally evil and the appeasers and apologists do great damage to their own goals of world freedom and peace by clouding this extremely clear fact.
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Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

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Old 04-25-2008, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Matticus77 View Post
I'll stand behind you for that. Our country gives us and them the freedom of religion. It is very annoying though to see Christianity and Jud to be constantly attacked with words, physical acts, and amendments without supported defense and now Islam has also recently started to try and impose itself on our laws.

Although Islam has its right to be I wish it were gone as I believe it is the false religion with the false prophet that has been said by Christianity to conquer the world and kill all who refuse to convert. I wouldn't be surprised if Muhammed is the actual anti-Christ that is already here while others wait for him to come, and his religion is set to conquer and kill those who refuse it. And of course when Christ comes back and Muslims say they know and follow him he would say he never knew them. It is said that many many people will claim they follow Christ and be denied when he returns and I believe those to be Muslims.
lol I agree
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