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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rebellion View Post
And the income tax was instituted to pay for the civil war, not to redistribute income. Which is why it isn't in there. And general welfare is not some catch all that allows government to do whatever it likes. If it were then the consitution would be unnecessary and we could have a one sentence document that allows government to promote general welfare of the country.
In essence, that's what we have because that's what the government does. General Welfare has been used to promote the vast majority of what the federal government does, good or bad. However, you're building a strawman argument in saying "whatever it likes". It may be the case that government is in fact doing whatever they like, but thats not what it says it says to "promote the general welfare", not to "promote whatever the government likes". If we believe the government is wrongfully promoting something outside of the general welfare they are charged to uphold, take it to the supreme court. that's their job.
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Last edited by JeffLV; 04-08-2008 at 02:58 PM. Reason: typo
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CRIMSON MASK View Post
Income redistribution goes against everything this country stands for.

Who decides who is making too much? And at what point?
The government does.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 03:19 PM
eleanoraquitaine eleanoraquitaine is offline
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This, I will agree with you in practice, but not in principle.
What does that mean exactly?

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The government does.
Great. So whats the limit? At what point would you say its no longer justified to steal one's benefits from labor? If the government decides to take 70%, is that still okay? 80%? 90%?

Because with the growth of the welfare state and the retirement of the greedy baby boomers, we are headed for a time when our youth are going to face such crushing impossibilities.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by eleanoraquitaine View Post
What does that mean exactly?
That means any good thing can be twisted to the will of those who would corrupt it.
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Great. So whats the limit? At what point would you say its no longer justified to steal one's benefits from labor? If the government decides to take 70%, is that still okay? 80%? 90%?

Because with the growth of the welfare state and the retirement of the greedy baby boomers, we are headed for a time when our youth are going to face such crushing impossibilities.
At the point where it no longer promotes the general welfare. This is Congress's job to decide and the Court's job to regulate.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 05:04 PM
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The government does.
Maybe in China or Cuba.
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CRIMSON MASK View Post
Maybe in China or Cuba.
Natrually. Because we never elect representatives in this country to make decisions for us.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2008, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffLV View Post
In essence, that's what we have because that's what the government does. General Welfare has been used to promote the vast majority of what the federal government does, good or bad. However, you're building a strawman argument in saying "whatever it likes". It may be the case that government is in fact doing whatever they like, but thats not what it says it says to "promote the general welfare", not to "promote whatever the government likes". If we believe the government is wrongfully promoting something outside of the general welfare they are charged to uphold, take it to the supreme court. that's their job.
It's not a strawman because general welfare is vague and can be used as "whatever it likes." All they have to say is "well we deem it in the general welfare of the US to do this."
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2008, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rebellion View Post
It's not a strawman because general welfare is vague and can be used as "whatever it likes." All they have to say is "well we deem it in the general welfare of the US to do this."
I agree, it is dangerous, but it is still not so vague that it amounts to "whatever it likes". There are limits as evident by the fact that many laws have been struck down by the supreme court or simply not passed because of a threat from the supreme court. We have to keep a very good eye of the government and how they use their power. We have the ability to check the use of that congressional power in many ways:

Impeachment
The Supreme Court
Lower Courts
Elections and demands to our elected representatives
Change the constitution

People just need to keep an eye on it and get involved....
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2008, 02:18 PM
eleanoraquitaine eleanoraquitaine is offline
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That means any good thing can be twisted to the will of those who would corrupt it.
This is exactly the reason that government power (like taxes) must be severely limited. Power corrupts and all.

Quote:
This is Congress's job to decide and the Court's job to regulate.
Just another "believer" in government.
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Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2008, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by eleanoraquitaine View Post
This is exactly the reason that government power (like taxes) must be severely limited. Power corrupts and all.



Just another "believer" in government.

It's congress's job to make decisions, but it's our decision who goes into congress. As I mentioned in my post above, we have several tools to control the power of congress:

Impeachment
The Supreme Court
Lower Courts
Elections and demands to our elected representatives
Change the constitution

Congress makes decisions, we keep an eye on congress. If anyone is failing in their job, its the people watching congress. I'm glad there are people like you keeping an eye out (or are you just talking?). Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we have to all agree.
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Last edited by JeffLV; 04-09-2008 at 02:34 PM.
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