Ah, you're starting to warm up to my way of thinking. Now all you need to do is change the pessimistic out look on life. You need to realize that the cat is not doomed. You came up with me reasons you should allow the cat to become dependent on you, but this cat is not doomed. Poor people in America are not starving, they're not worn down so much that they can't work. Did you know that if you're impoverish in America actually have a better chance of being fat than skinny? The cat is not doomed. The cat is dependent.

I never disagreed with your reasoning. People should not be made dependant, I have never said otherwise.

I, however, disagree that an individual and society in general is better off in all cases to leave someone on their own. Just like a business man can use a loan to advance his business further than he could with only his own resources, I believe a person can do better with support to get out of their hole than on their own. It's not a question of if they can survive or not. It's a question of what will help them advance further. When they are on solid ground, they will be able to contribute more to society and the economy than otherwise, just like the business man.

I don't think we disagree with each other fundamentally. I think we are just dancing around a similar topic from different perspectives. You brought up the idea of state sponsored charity, so you obviously don’t believe that nobody should get any help.

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True knowledge exists in being aware of what you don't know.

I feel that the reason we should do the charity idea is 2 reasons. First, it will save a lot of money (BTW business loans are paid back, so it's not at all like charity or welfare). Second, I don't think people will be as likely to take hand outs if they have to go to a church or some where public in order to get them. Welfare checks are basically faceless. Each time a person actually receives money from a church, they think about their life. That's what social experiences do. People are less likely to do it if they feel like they're begging for money. I mean, how would you feel if you're waiting in line, you're 300 pounds, well fed, and high on crack while standing next to the little boy who's mother has cancer?

Actually, my younger sons are lucky, him not so much... I used to work WAY too much when he was growing up, and easliy lost my temper, way too many times with him.

But my point however, is that it takes someone to become uncomfortable to want to change their life.

I grew up in a very poor neighborhood, and we used to move around a lot because My mom would not be able to pay the rent. I remember one year, my Mom decided to work 3 jobs and saved up $2500.00. She then used that money to buy a house, the place was an Absolute Dump, had a hole in the roof, but the Government was selling these homes at a huge discount, with a 1% 10K loan to fix it up, so she took advantage of that. We finally had enough stability to where I could actually make some friends. At any rate, all these people were planning their lives around Welfare, and Government handouts. I had one friend who was a few years older, that told me that he was going to get his Girlfriend Pregnant so they could get on Welfare, and how every few years they'd have another kid to keep getting more cash. I couldn't believe my ears! In the meantime, they called me a dreamer because I used to always look at the expensive homes in that Magazine Giveaway Contest with Ed McMan, and JC Penny's catalogs to see how I was going to furnish my home. To them I was crazy. To me, they were Crazy. A few months before I turned 16, I begged my Mom to let me move to Florida with my Sister, I was convinced that If I stayed in Rhode Island, I'd end up just like my Friends, so I came down here, and been here ever since. At 42, I now own a fairly large 3K Sq. Ft. Home, I have 2 very nice cars, both 8 Cylinder. My only worry now, is my youngest son suffers from Autism, but I'm sure we can overcome issues with hard work.
My whole point is, there's nothing really special about me. I was fortunate to have my Mom always tell me that I can do anything I put my mind to. There is no one holding me down. The only person I need to show up is myself.

I listen to Obama's speaches and he's basically telling people that even though HE became a millionaire during the Reagan Boom Times, when Reagan was going down what he saw was the Wrong Road. We can't do what he did. We can't do it on our own. We NEED government to help us out. I believe that is a very despairing message to give to people. "I can't make it on my own. They're keeping me down" I can just SEE my old friends eyes back then in RI. The Complete lack of hope. He really thought this was the best way for him. I don't want another generation to grow up thinking that this is how you do it. This is how you make it in this country, that "You've Gotta Get yours" as they used to always say in my old neighborhood. Or worse that nothing can be done without the Government helping you.

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http://www.nosocialism.com
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America is not a Socialist country, this is why the only democrats who ever win, are democrats who SOUND like Republicans (Hello Bill Clinton - "Low taxes, Free Trade, Welfare Reform, Era of Big Government Over" - Sounds Republican - Hello Barrack Obama - "My Tax Cut is Bigger than yours, Your Health Care Plan is Big Government, Parents need to take responsibility for their kids schooling]").

If the person recovers and becomes a productive member of society, yes, it is paid back. They will pay more taxes and pay back what they god out, and then some. So there is a return on investment. We should not be supporting lazy people who will not take this support and use it to become a productive member of society. This is very similar to the business man getting a loan example.
I don't disagree with your points here. The only questions remaining are the proper tactics, not the principle that some people should get assistance.

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True knowledge exists in being aware of what you don't know.

I think it's very different. With a business loan the outcome is either lose or win or win. A business man can fail, and then the loan is not paid and he goes bankrupt. That is the lose, but if he does succeed, not only does he pay off the loan, but he also pays the community.

Welfare is lose, lose/win. They can be on welfare their whole life, that's a loss, or they can be on welfare for a little bit (loss) and make it out of it (win). however, the amount of people who do come out of it will probably not pay (in tax money) the amount needed to support the others on welfare. That's why there is such a thing as a progressive tax.

Welfare is not self supporting. It may be necessary in some places, but the areas it covers is too wide. I think the idea of letting charities do it is much better. It will strengthen the community, employ people while saving money, and still help poor people - and possibly get more to the ones who really need it.

Only in its current form, but I'm not encouraging a system that encourages anyone to stay dependant. Under this system, it is a lose, win/win situation.

Granted, however, there are exceptions. There are some who may be so sick that they have to live off of society, and I have nothing against this. But this, one would hope, is not the normal situation. I believe the normal situation is either just a plain lazy person or a person that can do better with some support. Don’t support the lazy person, just like you don't support every business person that wants money, and you will have your lose, win/win situation.

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True knowledge exists in being aware of what you don't know.

Exactly. Now to find a politician willing to commit political suicide for us.

lol, bringing theory into reality can be quite a challenge.

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True knowledge exists in being aware of what you don't know.

this comment confuses me ...

not sure where you are at ...
... but MANY soup Kitchens are in church basements and some food pantries are there too

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Some

Words From History:

“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction...” — Ted Kennedy (September 27, 2002)


"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan.