Originally Posted by BigRed

Why do people need to be ruled?

Originally Posted by CRIMSON MASK

There are barbaric countries out there that would implement some of the warpest policies you could think of.

Your world view is cute and smiley and very naive. There will never be that kind of world unity. There will always be monsters that want to saw your head off becuase you dared doodled a cartoon or something.

Originally Posted by KOD

Then, we agree that America needs to abandon outdated ideals of freedom and conform to the modern world socialistic system. So why do you cling to the old romantic dreamer's ideas about democracy? As I pointed out before, the masses aren't qualified to make their own decisions, so why should they be allowed to choose leaders?

Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar

Oh I've missed being able to do it like this.



Because in organisation we can acheive things we could never if we were disorganised. Plus if you don't do it some git with a heavy blunt object will take your stuff and call himself a King.



Let me join you in trying to characterise the world views of people I have the scantest association with- yours is one bound by fear, knowledgable of a slither of the world's woes and so too shutoff from the vast array of greater possibilities within reach.

These barbarians you speak of are largely the product of illusion- those that are not would be checked by any democratic order I aspire to. I state again the sheer march of history that has seen governance unify old foes- Greece is my example...do you think the ancient Athenians, Corinthians, Spartans would have even be able to envision, with their petty wars and empires, and their greatness too, would conceive Alexander's march, the intervening empires, the modern state of Greece, the EU, UN?

Look above you neighbor, we have all the preconditions for world governance now- its neccesity and its means- you can look at history and see biter enemies unite, merely look for the next step. Itsby nomeansassured, but its entirely plausible.



I care not if the economic system is more Capital or Social, so long as it is democratic- that above all things, for from that I think all other good things, if not so much flow, but are insured. Economically, I think we're quite close as you know, and yes America needs to embrace a global identity; all that they need to 'abandon' is 'America' being the largest body of governance they participate in, just as I would as an Australian.

The ideal of freedom is of paramount importance, and its crazy to advocate its abandonment...why do you think you wouldn't end up as one of the enslaved?

As for clinging; well I'm a young romantic, but such ideas rest on firm foundations I assure you. Power initially lies with the people- in their hands and minds, quite literally. To govern for the good of all, that power must be focused, and history deomonstrates that the least violent and far more stable way is for people to vote that power into focus.

What are your alternatives? I hate to tell you, but we're all remarkably similar, there is no clearly stated and universally recognised 'elite'- there would be killing, deception...such wasteful things, with less effective governance at the end of it. History has shown it, democracy is the least worst system, and the most capable of changing itself for the better.

As for qualifications; we're as qualified as anyone, certainly more so than a self appointed elite, if for no other reason than we know what we want, and whats best for us(generally)- is the point of governance not to do whats best for all?

BTW Bugalugs, as bad as things are, think of how much worse they can demostrably be, and the level of anti-democratic influence on our democracies even now: notably on climate change for instance- ought to read 'High and Dry', its a great book. Oh and GWB as an argument supports me- he stole the elections, and lost the 'popular vote' (or 'democratic will' as its also known) outright in 2000.

http://www.gregpalast.com/floridas-f...y-of-the-year/

Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar

The ideal of freedom is of paramount importance, and its crazy to advocate its abandonment...why do you think you wouldn't end up as one of the enslaved?

Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar

Oh I've missed being able to do it like this.



Because in organisation we can acheive things we could never if we were disorganised. Plus if you don't do it some git with a heavy blunt object will take your stuff and call himself a King.



Let me join you in trying to characterise the world views of people I have the scantest association with- yours is one bound by fear, knowledgable of a slither of the world's woes and so too shutoff from the vast array of greater possibilities within reach.

These barbarians you speak of are largely the product of illusion- those that are not would be checked by any democratic order I aspire to. I state again the sheer march of history that has seen governance unify old foes- Greece is my example...do you think the ancient Athenians, Corinthians, Spartans would have even be able to envision, with their petty wars and empires, and their greatness too, would conceive Alexander's march, the intervening empires, the modern state of Greece, the EU, UN?

Look above you neighbor, we have all the preconditions for world governance now- its neccesity and its means- you can look at history and see biter enemies unite, merely look for the next step. Itsby nomeansassured, but its entirely plausible.



I care not if the economic system is more Capital or Social, so long as it is democratic- that above all things, for from that I think all other good things, if not so much flow, but are insured. Economically, I think we're quite close as you know, and yes America needs to embrace a global identity; all that they need to 'abandon' is 'America' being the largest body of governance they participate in, just as I would as an Australian.

The ideal of freedom is of paramount importance, and its crazy to advocate its abandonment...why do you think you wouldn't end up as one of the enslaved?

As for clinging; well I'm a young romantic, but such ideas rest on firm foundations I assure you. Power initially lies with the people- in their hands and minds, quite literally. To govern for the good of all, that power must be focused, and history deomonstrates that the least violent and far more stable way is for people to vote that power into focus.

What are your alternatives? I hate to tell you, but we're all remarkably similar, there is no clearly stated and universally recognised 'elite'- there would be killing, deception...such wasteful things, with less effective governance at the end of it. History has shown it, democracy is the least worst system, and the most capable of changing itself for the better.

As for qualifications; we're as qualified as anyone, certainly more so than a self appointed elite, if for no other reason than we know what we want, and whats best for us(generally)- is the point of governance not to do whats best for all?

BTW Bugalugs, as bad as things are, think of how much worse they can demostrably be, and the level of anti-democratic influence on our democracies even now: notably on climate change for instance- ought to read 'High and Dry', its a great book. Oh and GWB as an argument supports me- he stole the elections, and lost the 'popular vote' (or 'democratic will' as its also known) outright in 2000.

http://www.gregpalast.com/floridas-f...y-of-the-year/

Originally Posted by KOD

I wouldn't consider myself "enslaved" by free healthcare, free education, equal income, and a green environment. Only masses ruled objectively can be assured of these things. If I must forfeit some sentimental liberty and meaningless freedom for the sake of health and equal uniformity, then so be it.

Originally Posted by bugalugs

Yes - I agree completely....I have no old romantic dreamer's ideas about democracy. I agree completely that the masses aren't qualified to make their own decisions about education, health care, the environment and retirement. Choosing their leaders for them is also probably a good idea too.

After seeing many of the opinions of many Americans on these boards - I'm very glad that I don't live in a country where that level of bigotry and ignorance could play a role in a democratic process. Put simply - there are far too many stupid people around for democracy to work properly. Just look at the current US President. If that is what democracy gets you - time to find a better system.

Originally Posted by bugalugs

Is it worse than some jerkwater 1st world country starting illegal wars and polluting the planet without taking action against climate change?

Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar

I care not if the economic system is more Capital or Social, so long as it is democratic- that above all things, for from that I think all other good things, if not so much flow, but are insured. Economically, I think we're quite close as you know, and yes America needs to embrace a global identity; all that they need to 'abandon' is 'America' being the largest body of governance they participate in, just as I would as an Australian.

The ideal of freedom is of paramount importance, and its crazy to advocate its abandonment...why do you think you wouldn't end up as one of the enslaved?

As for clinging; well I'm a young romantic, but such ideas rest on firm foundations I assure you. Power initially lies with the people- in their hands and minds, quite literally. To govern for the good of all, that power must be focused, and history deomonstrates that the least violent and far more stable way is for people to vote that power into focus.

What are your alternatives? I hate to tell you, but we're all remarkably similar, there is no clearly stated and universally recognised 'elite'- there would be killing, deception...such wasteful things, with less effective governance at the end of it. History has shown it, democracy is the least worst system, and the most capable of changing itself for the better.

As for qualifications; we're as qualified as anyone, certainly more so than a self appointed elite, if for no other reason than we know what we want, and whats best for us(generally)- is the point of governance not to do whats best for all?

Originally Posted by KOD

I wouldn't consider myself "enslaved" by free healthcare....

Originally Posted by CRIMSON MASK

What kind of gobbledy gook are talking about? How would you pick and choose who had a say in a world government? Who would make these decisions? Some elitist panel of know it alls?

Originally Posted by CRIMSON MASK

You may not believe so and may seek to hide form the truth by talking about historical figures, but there are CURRENTLY barbaric areas of this country that would behead you for simply drawing a cartoon and would stone your mom to death becuase she dared reveal her left ankle in public. And you want these kinds of epople to have some kind of say in how we are governed?

Originally Posted by BigRed

Life isn't equal. You can't make it equal and you shouldn't try.

Originally Posted by beachbum

the climate hasnt changed...

Originally Posted by bugalugs

Well said R-T. I can concur with "least worst" system. Democracy is flawed - but good benevolent dictators are hard to find.