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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:14 AM
Ronin-Talgar Ronin-Talgar is offline
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I'd disagree, but you'll have to tell me what specifically changes between the two for it to be feasable.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008, 06:50 AM
Ilithiad Ilithiad is offline
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Originally Posted by Demosthenes541 View Post
Hi, Im relatively new to this forum, and I would like to voice a strong opinion of mine. I think the only way to ever end war, and prevent the nukes from ever flying again, is a system of world government. Now just because I said that dont say "Ugh, that'll never happen" What I mean is some sort of government in which each individual nation keeps it's own independance, but they also answer to the world government, which will have branches set aside for different things. Just like a democracy, and for those of you against democracy, I tell you, it is the only way. So, what do you think?

The problem with a democracy is that there is too much special interest. Democracy is an unstable form of government. A socialist democracy is more stable and cares more about the people's voice in all things than our federal republic....Look at all republics throughout time and one in particular comes to mind...Rome before it became an empire...a republic ruled by the rich...does that not describe the current government in the United States? If a government is for the people by the people shouldn't the people's interest come first before everything else?

Last edited by Ilithiad; 04-24-2008 at 06:51 AM.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Hi, Im relatively new to this forum, and I would like to voice a strong opinion of mine. I think the only way to ever end war, and prevent the nukes from ever flying again, is a system of world government.
I agree actually.


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Now just because I said that dont say "Ugh, that'll never happen"
It wont happen in the foreseeable future. Certainly not until the world has been completely democratized.


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So, what do you think?
I think it is way premature. It wont happen for centuries at least.



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Government is almost impossible to not be corrupt. If you keep it limited though, the capability of corruption minimizes.
Good...then we'll do that with the world government as well.



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The masses have proven themselves unworthy of exercising good judgement and making good decisions, whether concerning their education, their healthcare, their retirement, or the environment.........so they must be ruled by strong leadership that is immune from retribution.
Strong leadership that that is immune from retribution has proven itself incapable of resisting corruption. For that reason, we cannot allow rulers to remain out of the control of the masses.



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Then, we agree that America needs to abandon outdated ideals of freedom and conform to the modern world socialistic system. So why do you cling to the old romantic dreamer's ideas about democracy?
Because they are superior to the alternatives. The most powerful, most advanced, and wealthiest nation in history is not socialist...or a dictatorship...or an oligarchy. Empirical evidence proves that democracy is superior to all other political ideologies.



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As I pointed out before, the masses aren't qualified to make their own decisions
Your opinion is insufficient evidence of that.


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The majority/mob is not always right. This is why we have the Bill of Rights--to protect us in the case that we find ourselves in the oppressed minority.
The Bill of Rights are just Amendments...they have no special powers than any other Amendment has. And, like other Amendments, they can be superseded. We already did that twice, remember?

There is no law in our system that cannot be changed if there is enough support for it. None.



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But even then, do people have the right to remain ignorant?
Yes. Because not all information has equal value. And what you personally consider important, may not be that important to someone else.


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How is it right for someone to have the same voting rights as I do when they remain ignorant by choice?
Because your view of their "ignorance" is just an opinion. You yourself probably dont give all information equal value.



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And yet it would violate an individual's personal rights somehow to force education, or my interpretation of education, on that person. I am at a loss of what to substitute.
I'm not. The answer is "choice".

Thats the whole point of freedom.



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Get Out OF Bed With Israel. problem solved
For the Islamofacists, yes. But I am not interested in solving their problems. In fact, I'd like to create more for them.


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I wouldn't consider myself "enslaved" by free healthcare, free education, equal income, and a green environment.
None of those things would mean you are enslaved. I agree.

The fact that you would have no say in them is why you would be enslaved.

And technically speaking, none of it would really be free. You would just pay for it in other ways.


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Only masses ruled objectively can be assured of these things.
No human being is capable of such objectivity. Therefore, your government cannot work.


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While you're at it, keep believing that world-wide planning and control has been tried before.
And failed. Non-democracies have been declining, not increasing.

By contrast, democracy has been spreading for the last few centuries.


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Your explanation here describes no real existing society and ignores the success of the most consistent and tenacious example of socialism today..............Cuba. When they finally have American conservatives/capitalists off their backs, they can apply the same universal controls over incomes, living quarters, and the environment that they currently have with their healthcare system.
So you admit that Cuba is incapable of competing with us under their current system. Good. We agree.



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The Soviets had a good thing going for a long time..........they just rarely had the proper leadership to make the decisions for the masses.
Where are they now? Nature does not recognize excuses.

And the Soviets were not around that long...America is a young nation, and even we have existed far longer than the Soviets did.


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Look at all republics throughout time and one in particular comes to mind...Rome before it became an empire...a republic ruled by the rich...does that not describe the current government in the United States?
No, it does not. Because the rich cannot override the votes of the non-rich. And the non-rich outnumber the rich by a wide margin.

The Rich do not have any really power under our system. They have the same vote as anyone else.


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If a government is for the people by the people shouldn't the people's interest come first before everything else?
Who gets to define what the Peoples' interests are?
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Last edited by Sadistic-Savior; 04-24-2008 at 07:55 AM.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by KOD
The incompatibality I recognize between socialism and freedom is that nothing of importance can be left up to the whims of the masses. Do you think that legal abortion, racial equality, and primary education could exist by popular, democratic means. Of course not. Universal healthcare would be usurped again by freedom-loving right-wingers who point to the higher quality medical attention that the rich have access to. And the environment will never be protected by willful compliance with mere "recommendations" by the environmentally conscious amongst us.
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Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar
This is really odd. Those three things do exist, yet you say they cannot. And we're not making mere recommendations, we're making laws. Your proscription is to support some unknown elite that you for some reason is going to be nice and socialist, despite history and the current economic elite.
Interesting. Did you think that these (4) things have been instituted by popular vote? No...........they have been provided through mandate by our courts' judges (primarily appointed judges) with no regard for democratic opinion. Democracy is an outdated concept whose time has come and gone. Real progress can only be provided by central directive.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:27 PM
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Case closed Enough of that Dragon speech crap!! Cease NOW

Last edited by crestwood33; 04-24-2008 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 04-27-2008, 07:05 AM
BigRed BigRed is offline
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The solution to war at least for the United States is to not start them.
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Old 04-27-2008, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar View Post
Ideologies can live peacfully together, as our nations are testament to. Empiriscim is very much on my side.
That would only be true if you ignored the whole of human history. In your case, Australia is protected somewhat by it's geographic isolation. But even that will not be sufficient protection after a time, or are you forgetting World War II. You can't sit there and honestly say that everyone in Australia is happy and contented. No country could lay claim to that. It just doesn't exist.

You're right in saying that ideologies can live together, if they choose to but different ideologies choose not to. It doesn't matter what society you're talking about there are always groups that are dissatisfied with it, and there are always other places not as successful or prosperous that will want to blame you for it. Therein lies the flaw in the original statement.
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Old 04-27-2008, 09:58 AM
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I think there will possibly be a world govt in our lifetime or our children's lifetime.

I mean there's already a European Union, a South American Union, an African Union, and an Asian Union; plus a North American Union and Pacific Union in the works. How long will it take these Unions to unite into one massive worldwide government that will encompass all but a few obscure nations?

However, I think one world government is a bad idea, sure it will mean peace, but at what price? What if the people in charge get corrupted by their power to govern the world, (remember the little idiom: Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely) What if some nations get in a dispute with other nations as to how much authority the world government should have, then the world union splits into two, possibly leading to world war.
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Last edited by kbthiede; 04-27-2008 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:10 PM
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Sorry - I can't agree. I'm from Illinois and the rampant corruption even on the state level is overwhelming. I can't fathom a "world government" the wouldn't be at least as equally susceptible to the temptations of power. Besides, would it be a parliamentary system or representative democracy - and if either, then for how long?
Frankly any government is ultimately reliant on the characters of it's leaders - if people were perfect then communism would be the perfect form of government. They're not and it's not. At least a representative democracy relies on the mediating mediocrity of all of it's constituents to prevent to much or to little progress.
A "supreme world government" must fail simply because it will rely on the character of the people elected to it and if the history of the elections of the worlds most democratic country (USA) is any indication, then the elected officials in a world government can't possibly expected of be of better quality.
It's a grand Utopian idea, and I wish it could come true - but I'm a realist.
Don't stop trying - either there's something better for us all, something tangible, something practical or were all just waiting to paint caves with ochre - again.
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Old 04-27-2008, 09:16 PM
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Humans couldn't have a world government. They aren't smart, communicative, understanding, trustworthy, or peaceful enough. Insects maybe.
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