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Old 04-24-2008, 10:38 AM
hellohello hellohello is offline
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Question Basic political ideologies other than individualism vs. collectivism?

What other basic fundamental disagreements are there, relating to politics, besides individualism vs collectivism?
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:41 AM
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Theocracy maybe?
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Old 04-24-2008, 11:23 AM
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What other basic fundamental disagreements are there, relating to politics, besides individualism vs collectivism?
Depends how wide a net you throw with indavidualism vs collectivism. If you polarize the world into things Ayn Rand/Libertarians support vs things they do not. Than you've caught the bulk of things.

The fundamental disagreements on the indavidualistic side would come down to the mechanics of how make a true "indavidualistic" society function at all.

In practice however the are a wide array of disagreements between positions where you would probably consider both sides collectivist. For example most anything having to do with foreign policy. (I.e. Stay the course in Iraq vs Pull out of Iraq and focus on Afganistan, the option of pulling totally out of the other hemisphere simply isn't on the table)

"Fairtax" vs progressive taxation

So on and so forth.
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Old 04-24-2008, 12:00 PM
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What other basic fundamental disagreements are there, relating to politics, besides individualism vs collectivism?
To me, there isn't.

Either you are an individualist or a collectivist. Everything else stems from that belief. Which of course stems into a plethora of other things and so forth, but individualist vs. collectivist is the gestation of it all.
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Old 04-24-2008, 12:28 PM
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Individualism and collectivism aren't even really ideologies in themselves. They are more an aspect of ideology. And it's a scale (like most things), not binary.

As a result what we argue about as collectivist and individualist in this country is very light in difference compared to the differences between democrats (both collectivist and individualist, as well as in between) and totalitarians.
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Old 04-24-2008, 12:49 PM
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Default other scales

How about:

secular vs. religious
liberal vs. conservative
capitalist/corporatist vs. socialist/anarchist
oligarchy/plutocracy vs. egalitarian (democracy)
size of the middle class compared to the size of the working class/peasantry
ratio of wealth in a society - how much difference is there?
property ownership in a society - how much difference is there?
morality vs. amorality
extended family structure vs. attenuated family structure

All of these scales can produce very different societies.
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by skeptic-f View Post
How about:

secular vs. religious
liberal vs. conservative
capitalist/corporatist vs. socialist/anarchist
oligarchy/plutocracy vs. egalitarian (democracy)
size of the middle class compared to the size of the working class/peasantry
ratio of wealth in a society - how much difference is there?
property ownership in a society - how much difference is there?
morality vs. amorality
extended family structure vs. attenuated family structure

All of these scales can produce very different societies.
Yea and to me, all that stems from the basic question of life: Are you an individualist or a collectivist? Once you answer that, you fall in step with those above catagories depending on your view as an invidualist or a collectivist.
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:29 PM
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Yea and to me, all that stems from the basic question of life: Are you an individualist or a collectivist? Once you answer that, you fall in step with those above catagories depending on your view as an invidualist or a collectivist.
That's just how you polarize the world. You simply ignore shades of grey and define everything in terms of whether they agree with your brand of Libertarinsim/objectivism. Everyone who is not with you is a "collectivist"

However that's not the only polarizer to see the world through.

Theocratic stances of all types can apply their own with me or against me view
Same with Liberals and the different brands of conservatives so on and so forth.

i.e. all fundamental disagrements come down to the progressive stance vs the non progressive stance.
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnyside View Post
That's just how you polarize the world. You simply ignore shades of grey and define everything in terms of whether they agree with your brand of Libertarinsim/objectivism. Everyone who is not with you is a "collectivist"

However that's not the only polarizer to see the world through.

Theocratic stances of all types can apply their own with me or against me view
Same with Liberals and the different brands of conservatives so on and so forth.

i.e. all fundamental disagrements come down to the progressive stance vs the non progressive stance.
There is nothing else. Either you think like an individualist or you think like a collectivist. How can there be a shade of grade? There isn't period. It is the most basic outlook on life, on the world, on your position in relation to other people in the world.

You don't have to be a Libertarian or an Objectivist either. You could be a Constitutionalist. Or as we saw with Ron Paul, a Republican elected to office multiple times.

I disagree.

Last edited by BigRed; 04-24-2008 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
Yea and to me, all that stems from the basic question of life: Are you an individualist or a collectivist? Once you answer that, you fall in step with those above catagories depending on your view as an invidualist or a collectivist.
That says a lot more about your ideological outlook than just your state as an "individualist."

Binary (black and white) worldview.
Extreme unperceivable bias (belief in only one scale and inability to perceive other scales as anything other than an offshoot of that scale- same problem as extreme materialism)
Selective Attention (if it all lined up like this, you could literally break every person down into one group or the other on every issue... and have 100% predictability on where each person falls on any given issue).

Seems to be all the rage with "conservatives" anymore.
This weird idea that individualism = Christianity... I hate to bereak it to you guys, but- it only makes sense to you.
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