lol....You dont "have" to fix any.

Im thinking I need to fix a few of yours though. lol....just kidding.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

Your opinions won't be fixed with that attitude.

__________________
You don't have to pretend to like someone just because you are voting for him.

lol...Alright take your best shot....

Im voting for Obama, tell me why I should lose my vote for him and vote for one of the other two candidates??

I actually like John McCain and respect him, so all you have to do is give me some FACTS as to why he would be better for this nation than Obama.

Keep in mind the Reverend Wright thing doesn't bother me in the slightest, I wont vote for McCain if he brings in someone from the religious right as his running mate (and it looks like its going to be that way) I actually like his ideas about health care and the environment, and I have concerns about McCains age.

As for Hillary.....You would have an easier time getting me to vote for Dubya for a 3rd term.....SERIOUSLY. So dont bother barking up that tree lol.

Besides partisan B.S. you give me some good reasons why I should abandon my Obama vote and I promise in return to give what you say a fair amount of thought. I am always analyzing the candidates anyways so its not like I wouldn't do it, but at this point im almost certainly an Obama voter.

Now not to toot my own horn, but tell me how many other people here would be open to that?

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

What FACTS do you have that lead you to want to vote for Obama? I might have to start there.

__________________
You don't have to pretend to like someone just because you are voting for him.

Well I already gave a few...

I am a fan of his health care plan (essentially that he wants to require it for children)

He has outlined many plans to take care of the environment which I think is something that is a high priority.

He has made it clear that he is willing to talk to ALL nations. I like the idea of talking to ones enemies. He has made it very clear that he is a guy who will talk to resolve problems and will use force as only a last resort. In this day and age I think that is what we need.

He was opposed to the Iraq war from the start. The other two who are running both supported it. I WILL say that at this point it would be stupid to just pull out because chaos would ensue. I agree with McCain on that point. He also was an advocate of the surge LONG before it got implemented and the surge seems to be working well from a military and strategic standpoint.

He has shown himself to be the least bigoted towards gays and I think that the amount of bigotry in this nation towards gays is no better than what was being done to blacks before the civil rights movement.

He has made it clear with his speeches that he wants to unify the country (I understand that most politicians say it. Honestly I just happen to believe him more...Thats not really a fact though and I understand that).

And yes the "change" factor is big to me. I admire John McCain but he is an old man. I am 26 years old and besides his military service I cant even really relate to the guy. Like I already said I cant stand Hillary Clinton and would honestly rather vote for Bush than her. I mean lets just say that Hillary got elected and won a 2nd term as well.....That would mean 28 straight years of either Bush's or Clintons in the white house. And thats not even considering George Sr as vice president.

So there are some of my reasons.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

I will begin by saying that I am not a fan of McCain. He's a big government liberal. The fact that he has an (R) next to his name is irrelevant. I am a fan of liberty and small government. Naturally I liked Ron Paul. I am still debating on righting him in or voting for McCain to keep Hitlery or Obama out. Because while McCain is a liberal, the other two are socialists.

I do not agree with any resembling universal mandated government healthcare. I believe both Obama's plan and Hitlery's call for restrictions on profit margins for health insurance companies. They won't last long when that happens and we will be left with only government provided "free" healthcare. I don't understand how the people in this country want mandated government healthcare when the rest of the world is having so many problems with it. Are you really looking forward to wait times of a few months to get treatment? And while Obama's plan may not be mandated to begin with, it will be. guaranteed.

Look at the problems MA has with their healthcare system:

The subsidized insurance program at the heart of the state's healthcare initiative is expected to roughly double in size and expense over the next three years - an unexpected level of growth that could cost state taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars or force the state to scale back its ambitions.

http://www.boston.com/news/health/ar...ost_to_double/

Instead of the quoting the rest I will just continue on. Right now our country is in of some drastic reduction in government spending. Obama has purposed the greatest increase in spending between any of the other candidates. http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=141

Obama has no real economic knowledge. Did you hear why he wants to do nearly double the capital gains tax? ...to be fair. Just what we need! Increase the taxes on the evil rich! Who cares if it actually brings in less revenue, its the principle. Socialism at it's finest.

But Mr. Obama has also said he's open to raising – indeed, nearly doubling to 28% – the current top capital gains tax rate of 15%, which would in fact be a tax hike on some 100 million Americans who own stock, including millions of people who fit Mr. Obama's definition of middle class.

Mr. Gibson dared to point out this inconsistency, which regularly goes unmentioned in Mr. Obama's fawning press coverage. But Mr. Gibson also probed a little deeper, asking the candidate why he wants to increase the capital gains tax when history shows that a higher rate brings in less revenue.

"Bill Clinton in 1997 signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20%," said Mr. Gibson. "And George Bush has taken it down to 15%. And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. The government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28%, the revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?"

Mr. Obama answered by citing rich hedge fund managers. Raising the capital gains tax is necessary, he said, "to make sure . . . that our tax system is fair and that we are able to finance health care for Americans who currently don't have it and that we're able to invest in our infrastructure and invest in our schools. And you can't do that for free."

But Mr. Gibson had noted that higher rates yield less revenue. So the news anchor tried again: "But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up?" Mr. Obama responded that this "might happen or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going." And then he went on a riff about John McCain and the housing market.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1208...googlenews_wsj



I could go on. The $4000 he wants to give to all college students for "free." According to some quick estimates the program could cost about $64 billion per year ($4000 multiplied by 15.9 million college students (I got that number from 2004 census data)). If you divide it evenly among those with a tax liability at the end of the year you have about an additional $700 per person.

There are so many examples of increased spending he wants to do that this country simply can't afford.

Remember, his record is that of the most liberal senator. I don't think he has the ability to unify this country.

We need a president that will curb spending drastically to reduce dept, get rid of these deficits so we can stop borrowing and printing money and hopefully see the value of the dollar going up again. So far Hitlery and Obama have not shown the ability to do so.

Ps. I am really not looking forward to this election.

His health care plan removes you from the equation. Because the government is providing it, the government is making your decisions. You might seem okay with this because you might agree with Obama's stated health care plan, but once the government has such control, it becomes their opinions that matter instead of your life. It will also control legally what decisions doctors can make, and I don't know if you know, but when doctors are barred from doing something that will save life (and it will happen) or help the patient in a meaningful way, they are going to quit.

There is no way to determine whether any environmental plan is better than another because nobody knows how to determine whether one climate is objectively better than another. Anyway, focusing on the environment is a waste of time and energy. If you wanted any facts here at all, remember this: global warming doesn't matter.

He has only made it clear how naive and deluded he is. "Talking to one's enemies" is not some new concept that Obama thought up and wants to "try out." Nobody really uses force as a FIRST resort anyway. Other nations aren't children you have to scold or explain things to, and nobody can make them "use your words." Another way of looking at it is that Jimmy Carter talks to our enemies. Jimmy Carter. Need I say more?

If it makes no sense to pull out now, why do you care about his opinion of it at the beginning?

This sounds like a niche opinion to me, but you are wrong, just factually. Gays today are treated FAR better than pre-civil rights blacks. We are a far more tolerant society in general and that tolerance extends plenty to gays.

He doesn't care about real unity. He just wants some easy way to make everybody agree with him. If everybody voted (everybody) for John McCain in the general election, Barack Obama would not be happy with the unity.

The people who use "unity" as a symbol do so because they really can't handle the harshness of real argument, so they claim to want to find some "common thread of humanity" to try to stop their more skilled oponent from hounding them. If he were less naive, he wouldn't care about agreement. He would care about the strength of HIS opinion, and if HIS opinion is weak, HE would strengthen it or CHANGE it.

First of all, the idea that it matters that we elected the same two families for almost a generation is stupid. If those families gave us good candidates, why shouldn't we vote for them? What matters is who the particular people are. Second of all, "CHANGE" is his verbal mantra. It has nothing to do with his policies or opinions on the issues, and it says nothing about his plans or his character. Furthermore, he never backs up his desire to change with facts. All it is is a most basic attempt to tug at your emotions, and it is NOTHING SUBSTANTIVE.

__________________
You don't have to pretend to like someone just because you are voting for him.

Spanky--

Im obviously computer illiterate and dont know how to quote BOTH of our responses from the last post so im just going to respond here.

Health Care--Here is my feeling on it, yes it is a big government issue which I normally dont like when it comes to finances. But honestly when we outspend any other nation militarily by such a large margin I dont care. We outspend Russia (the next closest nation in regards to military spending) by an almost 10-1 margin NOT counting what we are spending in Iraq, then I say we should scale back our military spending significantly and use that money to provide health care. Taxes wouldnt really go up significantly at that point. I have done the math on this and it really does work out.

Now some people have these MYTHS that Universal Health Care is so rotten and the care is rotten. I have lived overseas and it works just fine. I have all sorts of family in Europe and I dont hear about any of these "months long waiting lists" that so many people talk about.

One of my best friends lives in Canada....He says his average wait at the doctor is usually around an hour.

Oh yeah and ive actually had a form of Universal health care here in the U.S.......When I was a member of the United States Marine Corps.

I loved it then....And if its good enough for the military then its good enough for everyone else in my opinion. (I know there are some minor differences but its essentially Socialized Health Care).

Obamas plan though doesnt mandate it for adults, simply for Children. And I like that.

Global Warming---We clearly disagree on this issue. We both can quote MANY scientists who will back up our claims. I am an Environmentalist though and think its a big deal. Now with that said, John McCain actually is pretty good on the environment for a Republican and its one of the things I like about what he has said on the campaign trail.

Talking to our enemies--Yes I know this isn't something specific to Obama. However it is increasingly a Republican stance not to talk to nations that we hate. To be perfectly honest im not sure what John McCains stance is on this. If you or anyone else knows then by all means fill me in.

The Iraq War---I think that by Obama being against it from the start it showed good judgment on his part. We will clearly disagree here though. I AGREE with you about pulling out right now, and I think that as far as that is concerned McCain is best on the issue NOW, because just up and leaving like Hillary wants to do would be a disaster.

What bothers me about McCain though is his insistence that we will stay 100 years if we have to (similar to what we have done in Europe, Korea, Japan etc). I think all of our problems in the middle east stem from us having military bases there and I think if we continue to stay there, they will continue to resent and hate us. I think leaving COMPLETELY...as in all of the middle east at some point (once we were energy independent) would be the best move we could possibly make foreign policy wise.

Gays---Yes I know they are treated better than pre civil rights blacks. I wasn't saying that, what I was saying is that I dont consider the bigotry to be any less wrong.

"change"---Call me naive (my old man does all the time on this issue lol) but I actually believe that Obama is truly a "change" candidate. I know its a cliche term thrown around all the time but with him I believe it.

I truly respect and admire John McCain....and I DO feel he would reach across the isle more than most partisan politicians would. However I sure dont see alot of change happening with him....Even less with Hillary.

I also dont agree with you that almost 30 years of Bush's and Clintons isnt a bad thing. That reeks of "royalty" instead of whats best for the country.


You made a few good points though, and hopefully you will notice where I said I agree with you on certain aspects of it. Simply put what I WANT for the country is just different from you in certain aspects and that is why we wont agree on a lot of these things.

I mean im sure the Reverend Wright thing is a big deal to you (if im wrong let me know). To me though its a total non issue. I know everything he said, I know Obama has known the guy for 20 + years etc etc. I just dont think he was all that wrong for one....and for two I think Obama goes to the guy for his spiritual strength and not his religious beliefs.

Some people claim that this shows a lack of judgment on Obamas part...Again I just dont agree because I dont see it as an issue.

If I ever ran for political office and some of my friends & families beliefs were ever made public then I would make this look like nothing lol. I mean one of my family members solutions to terrorism was along the lines of "just nuke the entire middle east and that ought to get rid of most of them" lol...

Clearly everyone has people close to them that say some outrageous things at times....And none of us get away from these people.

The reason I brought Rev Wright up is because of the whole "judgment" argument that people are using against him, and im defending his judgment.

I WILL say this though...If McCain would go with Ron Paul as his VP I would vote for him. Unfortunately I think he will go to the Far Right and eliminate any chance of me ever voting for him though.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

You sure seem trigger happy for scaling down the military. Military spending and health care are not financially related. That you want to cut the military comes out of left field and feels to me more like a regurgitated talking point than your actual beliefs. There are so many other areas of government expenditure. If you want UHC so bad, you could have at least explored other options than trying to weaken our military when we need them the most.

An hour!? My waits are usually 15 minutes, unless I am at the optometrist's, which usually does take 30-45 minutes. Maybe even less on both of them.

That seems like a combination of one instance where the government actually does know what is best for you (the government controlling the military and intimately knowing the conditions it places on you) and of a form of health insurance through your employer. Neither of the combination provides evidence for the usefulness of an actual universal health care program.

"Children" is a political symbol that grabs at your emotions and sidetracks your logic to the point where even when you do care immensely for the wellbeing of children, your plans will more likely cause more damage instead of solve problems.

I thought we were agreeing to change opinions based on facts presented. I told you that if you ever wanted a fact, the fact is that global warming doesn't matter. This is a fact. Base your opinion on it. Pardon my saying it, but Environmentalism is mostly a masturbatory experience. To be fair, a lot of the things they say to do seem to be common sense, but the idea that you are "saving the world" is complete drivel.

We don't talk to nations who have made it clear that talking doesn't change their actions or attitudes or behaviors. We also don't talk to people who clearly are quite immoral and have shown their capacity for evil against their own populace. The idea that talking to our enemies will make it all better is a one-time experiment. Get any person, anyone, really, and ask them to change who they are fundamentally. It won't happen unless they are under extreme duress. As far as enemies go, they are our enemies because they way they are clashes fundamentally with the way we are. Furthermore, many of our enemies actually fit the propaganda of "just hating us for our mere existence."

So, would I be accurate to say that if you were to only vote based on this one issue, you would vote for John McCain?

The War on Terrorism is our RESPONSIBILITY. If stabilizing Iraq requires a 100 year commitment, we must make the appropriate sacrifices and do that. All our problems from the Middle East stems from the people's brainwashing by their own government. Our presence in Iraq will show our benevolence, and the propaganda will cease. Our presence in Iraq will show our determination, and the evildoers will cower away. Our presence in Iraq will show our sacrifice, and the Middle East will know our capabilities.

The individual cases of what you are talking about might not be any less wrong, but its lack of prevalence and permeation betray the fact that it is not really an issue in the scheme of things.

Don't be complacent in your naivete. Obama really does use the mantra of "Change" because he really has nothing substantive to say.

I can understand that.

Reverend Wright really doesn't change my opinion of Obama or my decision to not vote for him. At this stage of the game, almost everything is designed for theater. Less and less matters as far as determining the best candidate goes. Barring some huge discovery of overt criminal involvement, I no longer necessarily care about election or candidate news.

If does show lack of judgment, but I already thought he lacked judgment and competence beforehand.

Funny idea. Anyway, I don't agree that he will go for a far righty. I have no idea about it at all, though, so it is only a different guess.

__________________
You don't have to pretend to like someone just because you are voting for him.

I still dont think that you actually have "proof" when it comes to global warming. I can provide "proof" from a long list of scientists who believe it is real. Ive seen countless story after countless story on it, watched plenty of television specials on the history channel on it, learned about it in class, and have heard politicians and people from around the entire world talk about it as if its a fact.

Now you can clearly provide me "proof" where people dispute these things. Im not debating that. However when you have two sides fighting strongly over this issue, both with "fact" on their side then I dont think that I should have to change my viewpoint just because you can present information, simply because whatever you find I can contradict and vice versa.

However even before global warming was being talked about as such a serious issue I have always been someone who was always very strongly for the Environment....Even as a kid. So even if Global Warming proves to be false....Then I would STILL be an environmentalist simply because I believe in keeping our planet clean and healthy for generation after generation.


When I talk about scaling down the military it is because what we spend on it is ridiculous. Its not something im "trigger happy" about. We outspend anyone else by such a substantial margin that I think its ridiculous. Im ALL for having a powerful military and im proud of the fact that we spend more than anyone in the world. However instead of outspending Russia 10-1 why dont we just outspend them 7-1 or whatever. That is TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS that can be transferred to other programs that help us out here at home.

Im opposed to being the worlds "police force" and I honestly feel that is what we have become and why our spending is so high. So when I talk about cutting that money im simply advocating sending it into other programs here at home so that our tax dollars are actually benefiting the American people and not people in other nations.

You can do that, throw that money into health care, education etc etc and because your simply just eliminating what is in large part wasteful spending you dont even have to increase your taxes much.

Yes I understand we are at war and right now isn't the best time. Im talking about down the road mostly. Iraq was unnecessary though in my opinion.

To answer your question about McCain and Iraq though....Yes if that was the only issue I was voting on then I would vote for McCain.

As for talking to our enemies....Im sorry but I dont agree with you that they "hate us just for who we are". That is just a fundamental difference that you and I have. It is my experience that people hate us for our actions that they dont approve of. Sure alot of it is unfair and they dont know what they are talking about, but still I dont and never have bought into the whole "they hate us for our freedoms" arguments or anything closely resembling that.

The issue of "gay rights" itself may not be a big issue to me. The whole issue of "morals" in this nation though is a big issue for me. One of the biggest actually. I dont like the government telling people who they can marry, what they can put in their body etc etc.

As for the war on terror--This one is an issue I go back and forth on and ill admit it. No I dont think its our responsibility though. Clearly I have no problem going after Al Qaeda. I always have been in support of the war in Afghanistan. I was proud to have served there.

However I think we can go after our enemies in better ways than we currently are. What are we going to invade every nation where terrorists are hiding?? That would include most of the middle east, most of Africa, Ireland, England, France, Canada, Spain, our OWN country, Australia, Russia, and most everywhere else.

At some point I think we need to stop and look and analyze OURSELVES and really try to realize why they hate us. I have argued my beliefs on why they hate us many times so I wont repeat it all over again. But I DONT think its for the same reasons you think they hate us.

Ive already given my solutions for how we handle this, so again I wont repeat all of it. However I think that if we think a military solution is the way to handle this that it will be an endless war with no clear winner at the end. The more of them we kill over in their lands that they dont want us on to begin with, and the more collateral damage that comes along with it, then the more hatred everyone else over there develops for us and it just becomes a never ending cycle.

So getting back on topic with all of this....I think that Senator Obama is the right man to try out some of these things. Yes it is CHANGE and I think he is the one that would explore some of these alternative routes. I dont see that happening with Hillary or McCain.

There are certainly some things that McCain brings to the table that I like though. Certainly if we ARE going to be taking an offensive approach in dealing with terrorists I feel most comfortable with him running that show than anyone else.

He also has said that he believes Global Warming is real and a threat..

He also reaches out across the isle and could bring some unity this way...

But then we get to the rest of the issues and I definitely favor Barack Obama on the rest of the issues.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson