Well said and I love the incontestable foundation...

ROFLMNAO... What a load...

I'm sure that the tank drivers which represented the Government, were intrinsically tied to the Tiananmen Square pedestrian which the tank driver was rolling over... at least as intrinsically tied to the government as the 75 million “people” that the Socialist Mao and his little red socialist brigades murdered to establish that workers paradise… and I am as equally sure that the 50,000 people beheaded or burned in the Terrors were intrinsically tied to the new government which was loading them into the guillotine... and the 25 million that the socialist Stalin murdered and the 500,000 million of “the People” that the socialist Castro murdered and the 3 million the socialist Pol Pot murdered… were all intrinsically tied to the Government…

Leftism is the most intolerant, narrow minded and LETHAL ideology in the history of the species… any assertion that it reflects “the People” is absurd on its face…

You didn't even mention the 60 million under the most recent Nationalist Socialist dictator of a certain country in central Europe during WWII.

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The White Fox Uncertainty Principle states that:
You can never know the position of a liberal and the logic behind it at the same time,
because the closer you get to finding one, the more unknown the other one becomes.

I offer you proof that my uncertainty principle stands true:

As I've been at pains to stress many times before, you and people like you, misunderstand the meaning of socialism in the Marxist-Leninist sense. Hence you are unaware that socialism is first and foremost "the self-emancipation of the working class." The misrepresentation of Marx is is a trap that the majority of American's appear to fall into. Mao's and Stalin's totalitarian regimes are no more representative of democratic socialism in the Marxist-Leninist sense than America is representative of a democracy in terms of outcome. Now, don't get me started on Cuba and Castro who you equally mis-represent. Publius you really are embarrassing yourself and I really suggest you actually read Marx before pontificating on you what are gross misconceptions and prejudices.

In Russia 1917 prior to the genuine socialist revolution that overthrew the tyranny of the Tsar, the Mensuviks (reformists) argued precisely your line, namely that "democratically chosen socialist governments could not be taken seriously". The entire ethos of Marxism is centred on the notion that academic theory be put into practice. Theory should not be seen as separated off from practice as you imply, rather it ought to be fused with it. That's why we Marxists, as opposed to the Utopian tradition, which you appear to be a part of, believe in putting our theory into practice. So rather than restricting our ideas to the lecture theatre, we actually do something in practice: "The philosophers have only interpretted the world in different ways, the point however is to change it". We 'walk the walk, not just talk the talk' so to speak.

The world can only be changed for the better, if we use our superior arguments of rational pursuasion and by exposing the illusions of capitalism. We cannot hope to use the methods of our capitalist enemies and then take the moral high ground afterwards. The authoritarian and utopian approach that you speak of plays into the hands of the apologists for capitalism. Furthermore, the authoritarian/utopian approach is in no way representative of a democratic socialism (by definition the highest form of democracy known to man). This is because it is the antithesis of the idea that "the self-emancipation of the working class must be the act of the working class".

You therefore wrongly assume that the existing minority ruling elite who act on the behalf of capital, can bring about socialism on behalf of the working class majority. This is the same trap that all the brutal tyrannical regimes of the past (Stalin, Mao etc) who professed their false socialist credentials, fell into.

The point is we must learn from the mistakes of history. Your method of a kind of self-appointed elite who act in what they perceive to be the best interests of the masses in the name of socialism, is doomed to failure. Nobody pretended the road to international socialism would be easy, least of all Marx. Nevertheless, what Marx most detested of all were those self-proclaimed individuals who appropriated his ideas in a way that were the very antithesis of his theories.

It is within this context, that Marx proclaimed: "Please save me from my friends, because I am not a Marxist". Marx was very aware that the only way for socialism to come into being is from 'the bottom up' not 'from above'. We have to take our superior intellectual and rational Marxist theories on to the streets and into the universities, colleges and workplaces of our two great countries in order to counter the false propaganda which, as Gramsci pointed out, has engendered a false consciousness in the mass of the people. We do this by pointing out the internal contradictions that are inherent to capitalism thereby exposing its barbarism and the illusions that underpin it.

Like I said previously, the reformists in pre-revolutionary Russia were adament that they had to concede to the then existing system in order to overthrow it. They had many bitter arguments with the Bolsheviks (democrats) and Lenin with respect to tactics. Luckily, Lenin and his comrades won the battle of ideas and the Bolsheviks led the people to a revolutionary socialist outcome, overthrowing the despotic Tsarist regime. It is for this reason that Russia 1917 was the greatest socialist revolution in history, and moreover, is one of the few revolutions in history that can be described as genuinally socialist. It was truelly a revolution 'of the people, by the people, for the people.

The fact is, is that the historical record shows that deals and concessions cannot be made with those who control the reins of the capitalist system in order to overthrow it, no matter how frustrating it is for people like you and me who want more than anything in this life to bring this barbaric anarchic system to its knees. It is a system that is predicated on eternal warfare, starvation and hunger for the majority of the world's people whilst at the same time a tiny minority live in luxury and comfort.

I, as a sentient human being, can no way think this state of affairs to be acceptable as I sit here typing this in the year 2008. We live in a world of abundance yet people starve for no other reason than they are poor. In other words, productive capacity in society far exceeds the rate of human reproduction, yet people die of hunger because the capitalist system necessarily prioritizes profit over and above that of human need. This is barbarism laid bare.

How dare you align the fascism of Hitler with Marxism. The two are diammetrically opposed. It was Marxists like me who fought back the Nazi hordes; who fought back the Spanish fascists under Franco, who fought Mussolini and his felllow fascists - how dare you. The reality is, is that whilst it was my fellow comrades who were part of the various resistances throughout occupied Europe during WW2, it was liberals and neo-con fanatics like you that were appeasing them. Hitler was a RIGHT WING fascist UNDERSTAND. We on the LEFT are fascisms antithesis. Now this is a concept that even my 6 year old son can grasp.

LOL!!!!

No offense, but do you really believe half of what you are saying?

Sure there are idiot liberals out there, but do you honestly believe that Liberals are trying to bring about "tyranny?"

Im not trying to be a dick so dont take it that way, im just not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, because you cant really be serious.

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"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

Well that's because I was just trotting out those examples of 'the People' and the Government being intrinsic during PEACE TIMES and in just the last half of the 20th century...

I believe almost every word of it...

No I don't believe Liberals are trying to bring about tyranny...

The issue as far as I'm concerned is not what Liberals are trying to do, it's WHAT THEY DO!

Liberals didn't WANT the price of food to rise exponentially when they demanded that food be used as a major source of fuel energy; laying down the foundation for perhaps the worst famine in the history of the species... BUT THEY'RE DID IT!

Liberals didn't WANT to sentence two generations of inner city Black families to abject poverty as a result of THE POLICY THEY EXECUTED IN THEIR "WAR ON POVERTY".... BUT THEY DID IT!

The issue is not what the Independent Moderate Centrist Secular Progressive Bolshevik WANTS... The issue is THE CATASTROPHIC, CALAMITOUS AND CHAOTIC RAMIFICATIONS OF THE POLCIES FOR WHICH THEY ADVOCATE! We call these results of leftist policy: "Unintended Consequences;" and they are all that one can find after the wind of leftist 'good intentions' blows through... From the French Revolution to the present, nothing good has EVER resulted from leftist policy.

Do you think that The Chinese peasants that adhered to the drivel set forth in the Little Red Book wanted to be tyrannized?

Of course not... they want the same thing that our home grown Reds want... They want POWER. They want at the very least that their ideas should rule over other human beings...
Do you think the peasants that swept Mao Tse Tung into power wanted to be tyrannized? Of course, not, those peasants merely had the ‘Audacity of HOPE!” They wanted to CHANGE things… They slaughtered 75 million of their neighbors to get it… and no… ‘they didn’t want to slaughter their neighbors… Yet THEY DID!

In closing my problem with liberals is that they inevitably leave in their wake catastrophe, calamity and chaos… Think of it this way… You may have a child or know of a child , or BE a freakin’ child for all I know that is 18, 19, 20 something and while you may toss bck a cold one or two or three, you manage to get your homework done and cut yourself a C effort, which doesn’t make the parents exactly proud, but relieved nonetheless… but when you roll into Daytona, or Panama City you become a worthless piece of Shiite, drunk on your @$$ hedonist … who can’t get your fill of debauchery… You leave demolish your hotel room and your buddy’s car is totaled by the time it gets back to campus.

Now “You didn’t want to” destroy the hotel room and your buddies car, BUT YOU DID! <<< That’s my problem with Liberals.

Uh oh… Hmm... You're not by chance experiencing the Audacity of Hope here are you? Tell you what, you best just go ahead and let me see that Union Card, Pal...