And here is where the sword is double edged.

A person who joins may not agree with present situations, but he does agree with defending America. He may join and not agree with what we are doing now. If that bothers him then he is free to do his time and get out. Or he can stay and stick through it, and defend what he sees is right. Those of you that feel you can not defend he who defends you are cowards. Plain and simple.


You do nothing, and offer nothing. Yet feel free to criticize. While living under the blanket of security that they provide. Be it action here or there, they are providing it. It does not matter if you see them as protecting you. They are. By criticizing them for their service you not only do them a disservice, but you do yourself a disservice.

If you disagree with what is going on in the world, then it is your responsibility to stand out against it. Yet you fail to do so. You sleep safe in your bed and go to school. Then get on the internet and condemn the rough men that do violence on your behalf. You then criticize those in power for doing the same. If you do not believe that they are acting on your behalf then it is up to you to do something about it. Yet you don't. You sit back and boo from the sidelines. Shame on you. So proud to talk smack on the internet where no one knows who you are. Yet so afraid to stand up and do something about something you feel so strongly about. *bleep.*

You want change? Stand the hell up and change something. If you are unwilling to do so then please shut the hell up.

Oh wait..... I forgot, you are going to effect change later, after you are done with college. Yeah good call. Shut up, or do something.

The other day I posted a thread that talked about the run for the warriors Run. That will take place next week. There are at least ten members of this board that live within two hundred miles (ten that I have counted anyway) and not one person from this board has registered, or even commented on that thread. Can't even run a mile for those who have put themselves in harms way? Cowards, The lot of you!

I would rather do something, than do nothing.

You are doing nothing. *bleep*

__________________
ACHIEVEMENT
“Doing a good job in this place is kind of like peeing your pants while wearing a dark suit. You get a warm feeling, but no one notices..”


Http://www.nationalgunforum.com

I fully acknowledge that this is how I am. I have tried to be more objective than "That (*)(*)(*)(*) biased media," and try to determine what the real truth is, but I am definitely biased toward news sources that habitually confirm what I had already thought about the situation.

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I think America is finally ready for another president with polio.

Even though the US military is NOT defending America. They are defending the pockets of war profiteers and oil companies.
Again, they are not defending...at all.
How do you know? Maybe he or others have volunteered their time and services in other ways. Not being a part of one of the worst crimes against humanity in the last 20 years is a lot better than supporting it or being a part of it.
It would be wrong not to.
I disagree. I believe their actions will cause more terrorism and more animosity towards the western world. In a sense they are making the world more dangerous.
By invading non-threatening countries and causing much aligned hatred towards the western world? That is not protection.
Not at all. I stand true to my beliefs.
How so? I can't speak for Big Red but I've written letters, signed petitions, voted for anti-war candidates. Also by spreading information on the internet you are able to know that giving more information to others you hope they can make a more informed decision about the state of the world.
Yes. Violence that is not needed. violence that will not solve anything but make matters worse. We have been saying this since the beginning of Iraq and we were right. Things in Iraq are much worse.
Exactly what? Protest, speak out, write letters, sign petitions, join advocacy groups?
I would still say the same things face to face and I have.

I saw a bumper sticker in Arizona last August that read "My son is in Iraq so you can have your Freedom" I asked the guy to explain to me how his son was obtaining the freedom (which we already have) from Iraq which never threatened it. When he couldn't he got all belligerent, threatened me with violence, called me a few names and drove off.

In Canada here we have bumper stickers that read " If you are not going to stand behind the soldiers try standing in front of them." Anytime I see those propagandist slogans I challenge those people face to face.

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America's Enemies Are Not Mine

All wars represent a failure of diplomacy

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts.

Well consider this a face to face challenge then...


I agree with you that some people take it WAYYYY too far with their "support the troops" slogans. We agree on that.

We are also probably in agreement that the Iraq war wasn't a very good idea.

However ask the people of France how they won their freedom after Germany invaded them. Ask the English people who it was fighting the Germans. Ask ANY nation that has been attacked who it was defending their freedoms or even their way of life and it always has been the soldiers who have done it.

Without a military force you are completely vulnerable to any aggressor who would choose to invade your nation and steal your resources. Yeah you COULD go the Ghandi route, however against a guy like say Hitler that wouldnt do a whole lot of good now would it??

Furthermore someone who serves DOES deserve respect for the simple fact that they are choosing to do a job that will never make them much money at all (the pay sucks as a matter of fact) and where they quite possibly will be putting themselves at great personal risk of injury or even death.

I served proudly in the United States Marine Corps and served in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I supported our actions in Afghanistan 100% and im (*)(*)(*)(*) proud of the job we did over there. Those people over there (especially the women) were leading a miserable existence even by their standards and we are at least giving them a chance at some level of happiness. It was the work of Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen who have provided them with that opportunity (lots of great Canadians as well btw). Maybe it wont work out, and certainly going to Iraq didn't help, but still great progress has been made over there and again im (*)(*)(*)(*) proud of it.

Iraq was a different story, I didnt agree with going over there and when it came time to re-enlist I showed my disapproval of that war by not re-enlisting. Still though I hope every single day that we get the job done over there so that they can have a better life.

Do you think that ANY single person serving in ANY military service around the globe wants to go somewhere and be shot at?? No they dont. Sure there are some who have watched too many movies who get excited about it, but once you experience it once its not something you look forward to.

These people do it because they feel its the right thing to do, and they want to serve their country. I had a 3.7 GPA in high school and pretty decent test scores. I could have gone straight to college, but instead I wanted to serve my country and also follow a family tradition of service. My grandparents on BOTH sides came to the United States as immigrants from Ireland and both of my Grandfathers proudly served during WW2 because they loved this country. I have that same sort of devotion to this country and even though im no George W Bush fan by ANY means, I would do it all again in a heartbeat.

Its certainly not for the money, and its certainly not for the "fun" of basic training or being deployed and kept away from your friends and loved ones.....Its because you love your nation and want to do your little part to ensure that if called upon that you are there to keep your nation safe.

Now I have NEVER asked anyone to thank me and I welcome debate when it comes to the opinion that you have. Personally I was only involved in one "battle" I guess you could say, and I know that when it comes to service to my country that I didnt do anything that even remotely approaches the amazing heroism of the greatest generation and what they endured during WW2. You dont have to respect me just because I served. I would hope that I could earn someones respect after they have gotten a chance to know me. I only mentioned my experience to give a backdrop for what im debating.

However you were essentially making the point that the troops in general dont deserve respect, and I personally think your being short sighted because your only focusing on recent events. WW2 may seem like ancient history to those of us who are in our 20's or whatever. However one of my Grandfathers only just died a few months ago, and the other one is still alive. So are MANY others around the globe who WERE true HEROES from that era and who's heroism really did save the world in many respects. I guarantee to them it doesnt seem like a lifetime ago, it probably seems like it was just yesterday. I cant imagine what they endured, but I remember my experiences like they just happened so I imagine its the same for them.

So SOME troops DO deserve praise. Others deserve respect, and all that people like me ASK is that you dont group us in with the less than 1% of troops who generate bad publicity.

I know this is a long post, and I want to apologize to everyone for it. However I do want to cover one last thing....

I think that remark you made to the father of that soldier was pretty much a b*tch move. So what if you dont agree with his politics?? You just disrespected a father who probably misses his son and he is trying to show his support for him in his own way. Does the politics of that one man truly have any real bearing on your life? Regardless of how you feel about Iraq, you just insulted a man who's son is in harms way.

I dont know you and so im not going to judge. Your probably a really nice person.... But I have to be honest, and if I was that guy I probably would have put a first class beating on you for that.

Im actually a pretty liberal person, but when it comes to things that are THAT personal I think you should leave your opinions to yourself and instead just express them at the ballot box.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

I was referring to the original article.
I should have linked it or something.

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McCain 2008
"We make war that we may live in peace"
"...peace is the highest aspiration of the American People. We will negotiate for it, sacrifice for it, we will never surrender for it, now or ever."
"War critics can no longer credibly argue that we are losing in Iraq, so now they argue the war costs too much."
"Oderint dum metuant"
http://members.cox.net/neddy/bobhope_kerfuffles.wmv
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RnfflRNpwKA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=j-QYIP7o2-A

Tuatara, I would like to thank you for taking each one of my points out of context.

In short, simply by being, they are defending.

__________________
ACHIEVEMENT
“Doing a good job in this place is kind of like peeing your pants while wearing a dark suit. You get a warm feeling, but no one notices..”


Http://www.nationalgunforum.com

Huh?!?!
Do you mean how you asked me:
I am still waiting to see where article 39 says. And I quote
"Invading a UN member nation without sanction from the UN Security Council is illegal under Article 39 of the UN Charter"

I have already explained that.

As I wrote earlier:
By invading a UN member nation without sanction from the UN Security Council - it is the invading nation(s) that has determined the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression.

This is contrary to Article 39, which says that the UN Security Council will determine this - NOT the member nation.

And it was the member nation that decided what measures would be taken in response to this perceived threat.

This is contrary to Article 39, which says that the UN Security Council will decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Because the action was directly contrary to the provisions of Article 39 - it is illegal under Article 39


Huh?!?!

The USA, UK and Spain tried to pass a resolution to enforce Resolution 1441. The UNSC did not pass this resolution. By not passing the resolution - the UNSC determined that there was not the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and hence - it did not make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.



Article 51 says they can not decide what we can or can not do to impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations:
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

How was invading Iraq self defense? When did Iraq carry out an armed attack against the USA or UK or Spain or Australia or Poland.....?

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Have you ever stood toe to toe with someone that was intent on kicking your arse? C-D-P

No need to apologize,its a fine post.

Thank you for your service.

I appreciate you taking the time to reveal a little of yourself.Ive mentioned before that I have dear friends in Iraq.You were confused in the other thread about my 'pity the poor soldier' attitude apopted by a large majority of the left wing (and media) but Im confused as to how you cannot see it,as a Marine.All the folks I know serving dispise politics,its the last thing they want to talk about under most circumstances but youre here so you must enjoy the circular drama that is political debate.

Whether you believe in the Iraq War or not,one must acknowledge a couple of things...theyre there now fighting real enemies,theyre making huge progress and setting deadlines isnt realistic.If you listened to any of the democrats running,probably for political purposes,they say just the opposite.The constant misrepresentation of the actual events on the ground is slap in the face to the guys making those strides."Support the troops,bring them home" mantra is what Im getting at.

Of course the soldiers and Marines serving dont WANT to be there but the guys (and girl I know) all feel like theyre winning and have a strategy at long last that will work in conjunction with the ever more capable IA/IP to bring about stability,which is the stated end goal.

You would never know this given the (lack of) accuracy in reporting about Iraq or hearing a Democrat give a stump speech.Liberal extraordinaire Stephen King has a great quote below...from just a week ago.Do you agree with his assessment? People who end up in the military I see portrayed as either poor,stupid,brainwashed or trapped by circumstances beyond their control constantly,Im amazed you dont see it too.

Once again thanks for your service.

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How was invading Iraq self defense? When did Iraq carry out an armed attack against the USA or UK or Spain or Australia or Poland.....?

When did Afghanistan? They didnt, they just supported the people who did.David Kay laid it out perfectly.Saddam was not in control,terrorists were coming and going thru Iraq with impunity,given his unwillingness to come clean and the UN self interests in not being serious about the whole issue,Iraq became a threat that could no longer be toyed with.Best defense is a strong offense.

Maybe we should have waited again to be attacked.5-10 thousand people killed this time.Then we can go get the piece of (*)(*)(*)(*) thats been nothing but a hazard to his own people and world peace for how many years?

Saddam will never get his chance to get his wish,revenge on the USA.He can never support terrorism again.Its an ongoing affair and Id expect more preemptive actions in the future.Like Condi said "Once you see the mushroom cloud,its too late".....

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It does not say that, that is your interpretation of that article. At no point does it say that.


As I said before. They determine what action they (the UN) will take. They can not determine what action the member nation can take.

__________________
ACHIEVEMENT
“Doing a good job in this place is kind of like peeing your pants while wearing a dark suit. You get a warm feeling, but no one notices..”


Http://www.nationalgunforum.com