This member has no conceded that she has absolutely NO Knowledge of ANY lie advanced by the President of the United States with regard to the war on terror or the campaign in Iraq within that war.

Any attempt on the part of this member to advance such as fact will incotnestably be an act of trolling, thus a violation of common sense, reason and of course site policy.

There are precisely NO lies which can be attributed to President Bush with regard to this war and despite their inability to post a shred of valid supporting evidence the Ideological left has compelled to advance such as the purest essence of truth.

But hey, that's how ya get to be the single most discredited ideology in the history of humanity...

Yeah, he was definitely wrong about quite a few things, and he DID mislead the American people (for instance WMD's) but overall I cant think of him telling an actual lie when it comes to Iraq.

Im not a Bush supporter, but I think people are a little bit too quick to call him "evil" or stuff like that. I think the guy is a miserable President and not very intelligent, but for the most part I think he means well. Dont get me wrong, most politicians are corrupt and Bush is as well...especially with corporate America. But I haven't seen all that many "evil" acts....Mostly just ones that I dont agree with.

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"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

'...not supporting the mission' is meaningless and yet another means by the vaunted 'independent, moderate...' to sit atop the fence and emote something akin to being reasonable.

But there is no valid reason why one would not be in support of the war in Iraq and still remain a loyal, patriotic American.

Iraq is a perfectly justified use of force; an act of self defense by a free sovereign against a hard core, maniacal mass murdering leftist regime that was well known by all who knew them to be a chronic user of Islamic terrorism as proxy means in advancing his sick twisted ends....

There is absolutely no valid means (beyond the humble pacifist and in their case, we expect much from them, in evidence that they are in fact a pacisifist and not just a gutless coward) to not support this war and simulataneously maintain the status: American.

Here allow me to demonstrate...

Would those who claim to not support this war please list the reasons on which they base this conclusion and the sources which they've used in researching the data that lead to it.


LOL...

Now friends, it's likely that we will not enjoy any response to this direct challenge and for obvious reasons; but where we may stumble upon a leftist (independent, moderate, centrist, secular progressive...) that hasn't learned to remain as vague as possible when spouting radical leftist boilerplate, we will find the reasoning invalid and as always, the conclusions set upon it, specious.

Enjoy...

We aren't discussing 'wrong' and 'misleading'... We're waiting on a response by a long discredited communist member wherein she has been directly challenged and so far declared her refusal to show valid evidence of "LIES" on the part of President Bush.


I am not interested in subjective interpretations which feed leftist anti-American dogma... IF Saddam Hussein was not producing CBW, then he was stockpiling massive quantities of dual use chemicals, for which he had little use for the alternative purposes, but if his goal in jerking the US inspectors around for a decade was purely to force the international intelligence communities inference that he was building CBW; THEN THAT WAS HIS DECISION... Numerous direct eye witnesses were interviewed and spoke of their own lives which were to the BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE, spent at various levels in the pursuit of Iraqi production of CBW...

The simple fact is that Hussein (Saddam, Not Obama...), through HIS ACTIONS, LEAD THE WORLDS BEST INTERNATIONAL INTELLIGENCE SERVICES TO BELIEVE HE WAS PRODUCING AND STOCKPILING CBW... Now he may have thought that creating such a facade would act as shield of sort, preventing the US from attacking his leftist Shiite hole... but President Bush acted upon the intelligence that was available and where doubt may have existed he gave the benefit of that doubt to the Intelligence community and decided NOT TO THE MASS MURDERING LEFTIST (pardon the redundancy) TYRANT!

So for those of you who feel like you were mislead, perhaps you should take it up with those who mislead the international intelligence community and not those who merely provided you with the conclusions of that community based upon the info they had at the time.

This member has NOW conceded that she has absolutely NO Knowledge of ANY lie advanced by the President of the United States with regard to the war on terror or the campaign in Iraq within that war. Any attempt on the part of this member to advance such as fact will incotnestably be an act of trolling, thus a violation of common sense, reason and of course site policy.

There are precisely NO lies which can be attributed to President Bush with regard to this war and despite their inability to post a shred of valid supporting evidence the Ideological left has compelled to advance such as the purest essence of truth.

But hey, that's how ya get to be the single most discredited ideology in the history of humanity...

I DO NOT support the war, and yes I am a proud American. Your insinuation that anyone who opposes the war is somehow less of an American is a baffling and pretty foolish statement. With that said, I understand that we have to stay there until Iraq can defend itself or else it will have all been for nothing, and there will be long term global reprucussions.

I generally am tired of looking back at the "why" though and instead try to look at present and future solutions. Harping on the past on this issue is a waste of time...

However you wanted reasons why some of us opposed the Iraq War and im going to give you a few of them.

1. We weren't finished in Afghanistan yet-- I served proudly in Afghanistan and was VERY frustrated when it was determined that most of us were headed to Iraq. We should have finished the job there before essentially brushing it aside and focusing on Iraq which wasn't as important IMO.

2. Iraq was not an immediate threat--This has been determined. I wont repeat the whole "WMD" argument, but clearly that didn't pan out. I DO agree that Saddam was a bad guy and im glad he is gone, however he wasn't an immediate threat.

3. There were more important problems to deal with--Iran for one. There were actually plenty of others as well.

4. We became stretched too thin--From a strategic standpoint I feel that we have actually made ourselves vulnerable because of all of the troop levels and resources that are required to maintain a stable presence in Iraq. I feel this is actually more of a national security risk than Saddam was presenting to us.

5. I dont feel military force was necessary there--Many of you will disagree with me on this one. I completely understand the U.N. resolutions that were ignored or broken, the non compliance with weapons inspectors, and all the other stuff that went on. I just dont feel that a war with Iraq was necessary....At least not yet.

I could list other reasons as well, but there are some of mine. Ultimately Iraq isn't actually that big of an issue for me when it comes to the Bush admin. I mean it is true that Saddam was a giant piece of **** and its also true he was not complying with weapons inspectors or U.N. resolutions. Clearly there are worse things than removing a dictator. I just feel that there were bigger threats, worse enemies, and more important issues to attend to. But honestly the Bush admin's spending and fiscal policy bother me a whole lot more than the decision to go to war with Iraq.

On a personal note Publius......Its no wonder you got banned for a few days. You speak as though Conservatives are all good and Liberals are somehow the "bad guys" or something. How about having a decent and humane debate instead of always getting so riled up? First of all it cant be good for your heart (lol), and second it would make things a bit more enjoyable for the rest of us here who dont want to deal with someone who is riled up all the time. Im not saying you should stop being blunt, I respect that about you...But how about toning down the attitude you have where you essentially accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you of somehow being the "enemy" or whatever. Im not your enemy, I can guarantee you that.

Yeah im somewhat Liberal....But we also have some things in common. Im sure if we went down the list of issues we would agree on quite a few things. Same with most other people here. Instead of focusing on the things you dont like about the other side, maybe try focusing on some things you have in common for once.

And quit acting like anyone who is a moderate is somehow a "coward". Not everyone here sees the world in black and white....Some see the world in gray. Its not cowardice its a different view of things and the way to deal with them.

Now with that said....go ahead and tear into me and my points. I am ALL for good strong debate and having people attempt to tear up my beliefs.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

Aside from some of the issues you mentioned above, one of the primary reasons I do not support the war is that what we acheived was no where near worth what it cost. Sure, you can point to a few positives that came from the war, but those are in no way worth the price we paid and continue to pay.

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I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.

Its funny for someone who is demading intricate details of things rarely publicized (ad schedules,r$d balance sheets,etc) you sure paint with broad stroke.This is a constant theme among the paranoid conspiracy types,ignore the common sense and look for the abstract minutia,that perhaps will never be seen.Because conspiracy theorists have axes to grind they seem to be insulted when the information they demand isnt available,even if its information thats not available on a normal basis.

Can you show me how many ads and where the promotion for the 2001 Prius was? Or how much R&D went into the Gen 1 Prius? Officially?

The EV1 was introduced in conjuntion of a mandate as we know.This was GMs offering.Even after almost being forced into this GM continued to support the project,they were responsible for the stations,they were responsible for the tech training and continued R&D to improve the car,which by accounts they.

Anyway the reason for the EV1s demise was as stated.GM had been working on the vehicle (clearly if the fans of the cars are being truthful about its greatness -a whole lot of time and money must have went into it).Why argue this point.The spent alot to make this car,by all accounts a good vehicle (Ive never said differently) but not the lightning in the bottle they needed to begin to make money.Sure they got rid of the limited amount of the cars (800) they made but that shouldnt be hard considering the marketing (which was elaborate and widespread obviously) surrounding it.The fact is they wouldve needed a waiting list a 50000 deep to begin to recoup the money spent on the development,not 5000.

Economic common sense.Risk ,reward. Think about it for a minute....these cars were leased at a price equivilent of 35k in 1996? The battery alone was 8000.00 dollars.Should GM lifetime warrantied that battery/car? Or maybe the customer should be on the hook at some point for the motor? Bring it to Joes garage and have him laugh you out of the building if you get stuck in E.bum(*)(*)(*)(*) brokedown? Then of course there was the imminent onslaught of hybrids coming.What do you suppose the EV1 would be doing vs Toyota right now.It would be getting slaughtered.An electric hybrid car that charges itself-how downright ingenius.GM knew this was a transitional vehicle-perhaps they didnt push it as hard as leasees wouldve liked but they pushed it. In the end its dollars and cents decisions hardly oil/govt/big three conspiracy.

Why do hybrids even exist if the oil companies could put them down?I mean 100000 Priuses certainly create a bigger problem for them than say ,5000 EV1s do? Why are there independent all electric cars still available? Why havent these same forces crushed tesla?

The technology never caught upto the cost, simple.The demand was there due to the limited supply.When it was clear that there were bigger fish to fry,better alternatives on the horizon and an out for GM they took it.Sorry.

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Obviously, nobody want the people to die.

But supporting the troops is akin to supporting what they are doing.

I understand your feelings toward opposition to the war PI. However, you’re wrong. Dissenting does not automatically make you un-patriotic, just as complacency does not automatically make you a patriot. Disagree, debate, point fingers, get mad as hell. As long as there is discussion in any form, then our freedoms are secure. But never, ever, decree that having an opinion about our government’s policies and voicing them freely and loudly makes a person less of a patriot. Having the voice and the courage to point out those things which we determine wrong is the utmost that any citizen can do to insure that our government continues to serve us, not the other way around.