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Old 05-05-2008, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by frodly View Post
I agree with you 100%. The people who get so upset are the ones who often complain about PC. However, it is morons like this guy who make honest debate on the subject hard! When an intelligent person questions the widespread idea in this culture that the troops are tantamount to saints, they get lumped in with idiots like this guy! No intelligent and balanced person says f the troops! Which is basically the same as saying I hope they die!

I don't drive around with a bumper sticker saying "support our troops" because I find it to be dishonest. Buying a bumper sticker does nothing to support the troops. Saying you support the troops seems to me to be the same as saying I hope the troops don't die, and their mission is successful. Well I also hope that innocent Iraqi children don't die either, but I don't put a sticker on my car, because I do nothing to help insure that!
I have no issue with the guy personally.

Its an opinion,probably uninformed but its his nevertheless.Folks have that God given right in this country.Of course a fellow like the author would never say such things publically live in person,unless surrounded by a bunch of antiwar people and police details but hes free to type it from the safety of his PC,possibly in Moms basement.

Plently of soldiers are pieces of (*)(*)(*)(*) as they only reflect a slice of society in general.Like society the (*)(*)(*)(*)bags represent an extreme minority.
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
Which makes it all the more astounding that the phrases "our men in uniform" and "our fighting men" are so often used when we are describing soldiers as untouchable forces of good.

It might have something to do with women not being in combat positions... but who knows?
all a Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine (plus the Coasties of course)

is...

is an Ordinary person

in Extraordinary circumstances
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MrRelevant View Post
I have no issue with the guy personally.

Its an opinion,probably uninformed but its his nevertheless.Folks have that God given right in this country.Of course a fellow like the author would never say such things publically live in person,unless surrounded by a bunch of antiwar people and police details but hes free to type it from the safety of his PC,possibly in Moms basement.

Plently of soldiers are pieces of (*)(*)(*)(*) as they only reflect a slice of society in general.Like society the (*)(*)(*)(*)bags represent an extreme minority.

I agree with you 100%. They are just people, put into extraordinary circumstances, and it brings out the best in many soldiers! But being human, there are some soldiers who don't live up to our high standards for them, just like there are people in society who do the same!!
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:15 AM
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So then we are all in agreement that soldiers are regular humans, sometimes good and sometimes bad?
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
So then we are all in agreement that soldiers are regular humans, sometimes good and sometimes bad?
Who is saying otherwise?
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bugalugs View Post
No - you are wrong.

The objectives of the invasion, according to U.S. President George W. Bush and U.K. former PM Tony Blair were "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20030322.html

Great Britain, Spain, and the United States have introduced a new resolution stating that Iraq has failed to meet the requirements of Resolution 1441. Saddam Hussein is not disarming. This is a fact. It cannot be denied.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030306-8.html

Resolution 1441 offered Iraq "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations"
Great Britain, Spain, and the United States did not gain a further resolution to sanction military action against Iraq. That action was illegal.

Resolution 660, which you are referring to specifically gave sanction for military action if Iraq did not remove its troops from Kuwait. Iraq had no troops in Kuwait in 2003. You argument is nonsense.
Government policy, which is all you are quoting, has nothing to do with international law.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Herkdriver View Post
Who is saying otherwise?
You ever see the uproar when someone does point out an atrocity committed by a soldier? Usually in the period where the atrocity has just hit the news and we're still awaiting a verdict...

Anyone who even seriously entertains the possibility that the soldier actually did do wrong is tarnished as unpatriotic. The news outlets covering it are tarnished as hating our military.

You don't hear that when the press and larger numbers of people act the same way about a yet-decided case involving a civilian.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
You ever see the uproar when someone does point out an atrocity committed by a soldier? Usually in the period where the atrocity has just hit the news and we're still awaiting a verdict...

Anyone who even seriously entertains the possibility that the soldier actually did do wrong is tarnished as unpatriotic. The news outlets covering it are tarnished as hating our military.

You don't hear that when the press and larger numbers of people act the same way about a yet-decided case involving a civilian.
Examples of this tarnishing?
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
You ever see the uproar when someone does point out an atrocity committed by a soldier? Usually in the period where the atrocity has just hit the news and we're still awaiting a verdict...

Anyone who even seriously entertains the possibility that the soldier actually did do wrong is tarnished as unpatriotic. The news outlets covering it are tarnished as hating our military.

You don't hear that when the press and larger numbers of people act the same way about a yet-decided case involving a civilian.
I was a Reservist. I wasn't a "full-time" Airman. I get deployed, return home and go back to being "Joe civilian".
Speaking from personal experience, what I noticed most about returning from various deployments: Our Nation is not at war. War is only for those part of it. I noticed a lot of complaceny. The media ignores the ordinary Soldier/Marine doing their job and doing it well.
The media has a bias towards the war in Iraq and refuses to acknowledge the efforts, instead presenting those serving in as poor a light as possible.

This is my opinon. The ordinary citizen gets their opinions from the media and their attitudes are reflected through this.

I've seen both sides, as a civilian observing and as a participant.

My loyalty belongs to the participants.

Last edited by Herkdriver; 05-05-2008 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Herkdriver View Post
I was a Reservist. I wasn't a "full-time" Airman. I get deployed, return home and go back to being "Joe civilian".
Speaking from personal experience, what I noticed most about returning from various deployments: Our Nation is not at war. War is only for those part of it. I noticed a lot of complaceny. The media ignores the ordinary Soldier/Marine doing their job and doing it well.
The media has a bias towards the war in Iraq and refuses to acknowledge the efforts, instead presenting those serving in as poor a light as possible..
But it's the same way the media treat everything. Unless a celebrity is involved, how often do the media report on teachers doing a good job, small businesses holding on, a government department doing something right?

Media are biased toward scandal and bad stuff... Urgency makes ratings. When life goes well, we take that for granted.

I take it that it's the media outlets' job almost to point out what's going wrong. People just need to take it with a grain of salt... And the feelings toward the war based on negative coverage are nothing compared to the assumptions of people about the crime rate and the effectiveness of the justice system.

But we only hear protest when it's the war!

And let's face it... when it comes to contextual questions... whether soldiers do good or not is largely irrelevant. The critique is limited only to the episodic things such as disasters vs. school buildings... and that critique should be across the board- not just when war is involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herkdriver View Post
This is my opinon. The ordinary citizen gets their opinions from the media and their attitudes are reflected through this.
It strikes me that most people have their opinions before the media are involved. The media reports tend to just affirm them. It's either "This backs up what I think" or "That (*)(*)(*)(*) biased media!"
I don't think soldiers are any different in this regard, other than the type of bias they are likely to have pre-media.
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