**** the troops! - Page 7

Bobcat1 · #61 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuatara

But after 60 plus years of no worthy causes and many lives lost to American guns and bombs the violence will never end because the American propaganda machine is strong.

What American propaganda machine? Are we bashing Fox again? Newsflash: Fox hasn't been around for 60 years.

Quote:

Most Americans wouldn't know a worthy cause because they are blinded with Nationalism.

This is so simplistic it's mind-boggling. Living in a democracy presumes that, at least some part of the time, the government is going to engage in policy which you disagree with. Only little children believe they must always get their way. Congress has ratified every war effort the US has been involved in, which would presume your opinion is the one that's "blinded" and extreme.

Quote:

It takes real courage to drop out of the military when you know they are wrong. How many of us would feel the same way about any Nazi going awol in 1939.

Our soldiers take an oath to fulfill their obligation to their country. It is to their own dishonor that a few in our military are only fair-weather patriots and break their oath.

No nation in the world - not a one - could have an effective military if its men-at-arms could arbitrarily chose not to serve. That's why these men are called deserters.

frodly · #62 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publius Infinitum

But hey, that's evil for ya...

Ah publius intelligent, moderate, and sane as usual!

Whaler17 · #63 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:09 AM

Foreign policy changes WILL NOT thwart terrorism! Terrorism is first and foremost religion driven. Are you willing to convert to Islam to thwart a terrorist attack? Military action to eliminate the terrorist's ability to launch an attack is the only way to moderate the threat. Only an idiot could truly beleive that a U.S. Military is unneccessary!

Publius Infinitum · #64 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuatara

But after 60 plus years of no worthy causes and many lives lost to American guns and bombs the violence will never end because the American propaganda machine is strong. Most Americans wouldn't know a worthy cause because they are blinded with Nationalism. It takes real courage to drop out of the military when you know they are wrong. How many of us would feel the same way about any Nazi going awol in 1939.

Can this member take a moment and provide for the forum the number of people Nazi Germany freed from oppressive leftist government?

By way of example, the US in the last 60 years, prevented South Korea from being concsumed by the Communist North and today maintains a war posture in Korea towards the same end... How many South Koreans that were saved is unknown to me, but I'd hazard to guess that it ranges in the tens of millions...

In SE Asia the US again sacrificed life and treasure to prevent the SVN from being enslaved by the truannial communists of NVN... in that instance the US leftist insurgency successfully derailed that effort resulting in the US wathdrawal of tangible military and financial assistance resulting in the Communist tyrannizing the free south and as a result tens of millions of South Vietnamese were enslaved and three million were slaughtered in Vietnam and nieghboring Cambodia, by the forces of communism innocent people whose crime was they contested the usurpation of their rights by communist oppression.

And of course in just the last few years the US has freed FIFTY MILLION from the tyrannical forces of Islamic Socialism... as we prosecute the war in international terrorism...

Now if you could just show, by way of supporting your equating the US to one of any of a dozen of Radical Leftist tyrannical governments which in that same period (the last 60 years) slaughtered 150 million innocent people... precisely WHO did the NAZIS FREE?

JavaBlack · #65 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuatara

But after 60 plus years of no worthy causes and many lives lost to American guns and bombs the violence will never end because the American propaganda machine is strong. Most Americans wouldn't know a worthy cause because they are blinded with Nationalism. It takes real courage to drop out of the military when you know they are wrong. How many of us would feel the same way about any Nazi going awol in 1939.

The solution does not lie with soldiers dropping out of the military. It lies with voters knowing a worthy cause from fearmongering. The policy decisions are made by politicians who are subject to the people's approval.
Soldiers and bureaucrats alike do not serve the function of shaping policy, but for carrying it out. It is the elected officials who decide on the causes and policies.

As for the soldier part... This does get taken care of naturally. When people see a war they do not agree with going on, they are less likely to enlist and drive down recruitment numbers.

But once someone signs on to the military they take on the duty of carrying out US policy.

crestwood33 · #66 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobcat1

What American propaganda machine? Are we bashing Fox again? Newsflash: Fox hasn't been around for 60 years.

This is so simplistic it's mind-boggling. Living in a democracy presumes that, at least some part of the time, the government is going to engage in policy which you disagree with. Only little children believe they must always get their way. Congress has ratified every war effort the US has been involved in, which would presume your opinion is the one that's "blinded" and extreme.

Our soldiers take an oath to fulfill their obligation to their country. It is to their own dishonor that a few in our military are only fair-weather patriots and break their oath.

No nation in the world - not a one - could have an effective military if its men-at-arms could arbitrarily chose not to serve. That's why these men are called deserters.

the wanna be PacMan conservatives needed reinforcement of their fragile narcissist political beliefs. Folks could actually form their own political opinions without being brainwashed.

Tuatara · #67 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobcat1

What American propaganda machine? Are we bashing Fox again? Newsflash: Fox hasn't been around for 60 years.

Who said anything about Fox? I bet you don't even know what propaganda is.
Which of the following quotes is propaganda?
1. If you're not with us, You're against us.
2. The US military fights for freedom and democracy.
3. I will vow to rid the world of evil-doers.

Answer: All the above

Quote:

This is so simplistic it's mind-boggling. Living in a democracy presumes that, at least some part of the time, the government is going to engage in policy which you disagree with.

And it is our right to voice our objections whenever a country is engaging is something we don't agree with. Especially when it is wrong or illegal and kills hundreds of thousands of innocents.

Quote:

Only little children believe they must always get their way.

You mean like Bush and his administration? Or are you talking about me. Are you implying that I should just keep quiet and never dissent when I feel a certain policy is wrong. How Totalitarian of you. Funny how you guys pretend to claim you're against Totalitarian style governments yet you show examples of supporting it.

Quote:

Congress has ratified every war effort the US has been involved in, which would presume your opinion is the one that's "blinded" and extreme.

Yes, they either perpetuated the propaganda themselves or where the victims of it.

Quote:

Our soldiers take an oath to fulfill their obligation to their country. It is to their own dishonor that a few in our military are only fair-weather patriots and break their oath.

Tell me, how would you feel if a soldier was ordered to fire on a group of pre-schoolers. Do you support his oath then or do you support his dishonor if he feels to not take orders. Also noticed you glossed over my Nazi analogy.

Quote:

No nation in the world - not a one - could have an effective military if its men-at-arms could arbitrarily chose not to serve. That's why these men are called deserters.

No nation in the world would ever do war crimes, acts of genocide, illegal invasions, countless killings of civilians if they didn't blindly follow the orders of their leaders. Every mass killing throughout history was done by willing men to take up arms and kill for reasons none other than propaganda. Our side is right, their side is wrong.

BigRed · #68 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

Names and ranks?

http://www.tomjoad.org/WarHeroes.htm#funk

Interesting site.

Quote:

Originally Posted by proof-hunter

Morons? do you really believe that Americans
are morons, just because they elected people
who make YOU unhappy? so much for
democracy huh?

So again, repeat after me, I am just like Mr Wright
"No, NO, NO, God D@m America and God
D@m Americans who voted for Bush."

or you can repeat after me, "No No No, GOD D@m people who won't fight for freedom, and
GOD D@m those who suck the nipple off the
government while bashing it for protecting them."

Yeah, I said that one hehehehehe

...

I don't like democracy.

Nonetheless, yes, Americans that vote for Bush twice, have favorable opinions to Bill Clinton and just continue to elect these idiot politicans to Congress and the Presidency, yes they are morons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by proof-hunter

Now in my opinion I think lefty's are crazy
when they attack their own country, and
say dishonorable things about the solders

Yet I must always remember that only in America
will they let a lefty vote and get a licence to drive.
now how dangerous is that? I guess thats why
we call it the home of the brave.

..

I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. I don't care about PC. I don't care about giving constructive criticism of this country or the occupants of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publius Infinitum

Worship?

Are you serious? WORSHIP?

Those troops are at this very moment setting aside the comforts you, without regard to your social status, take for granted... They can't get in their car and drive to... anywhere. Their job has them in a place where people are stuffing high explosives into the bodies of dead animals, old cars, or around teenage girls and detonating them to murder innocent people.

They volunteered to go into insanity... I say that this makes them something SPECIAL and that means I TREAT THEM AS SPECIAL PEOPLE! If I see one out at dinner, I pick up the tab, if I see one pumping gas... I wash his windshield and check his oil... because THAT IS THE VERY FREAKING LEAST I CAN DO, TO SHOW HIM THAT I UNDERSTAND WHAT HE DID AND DOES AND THAT I FREAKING APPRECIATE IT!

Worship? No sport I don't worship them, but I dayum well know that what they're doing goes WELL above the call that most people accept and that doing so make cost them everything... which, again... MAKES THEM SPECIAL.

And if you can't handle it, that THEY ARE MORE SPECIAL THAN YOU... then I suggest you grab the phone book and find a Military recruiter and let them suit you up sport. Then you can be special too and you'll get a first hand look at why you're special... and yes, if you do... give me a call and we'll get together down here in Naples and I buy ya some chow, top off that oil and put a shine on that windshield the likes of which you've probably never seen before... and it will be my honor to do so...

They're special because they do things that are unique among their peers...

I don't think they are special.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRelevant

Incorrect would be your opinion,no?

Im not so sure youre qualified to make such statements.

Youre right tho,they dont have to fight-they sign up for it.They sign up for it even today surpassing all the enlistment quotas accross the board,knowing all about the dangers many of them will face.Thats why theres an undefinable aura about the soldier in this country.Put fear,family,personal freedom aside for a higher calling is remarkable.

No. It is the opinion of my neighbor three doors down.

Of course it is my opinion or else I wouldn't state it. Your opinion is that it isn't incorrect, but instead correct, correct?

Not to me. It isn't honorable in the least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavaBlack

Without soldiers who are willing to do the job assigned to them regardless of how they feel about the particular war, we don't really have an effective deterrent for this country- at least not with a volunteer-only military.
As much as I don't like this war, I'm glad we have people who are willing to fight it.
I know it seems strange since the war itself is not a worthy cause... but their willingness to fight it is how I know we can be safe when a worthy cause comes up.

When a worthy cause does come it, the line for those wanting to go over to a foreign land and die will be longer than the one for Iraq I am sure.

Putting convictions ahead of duty to the state is far more admirable to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whaler17

Well, Not supporting the troops because you don't support the war is deplorable!!! These are mean and women who have voluntarily agreed to go into harm's way to protect your freedom. So you don't like the current mission they have been given, so what! Can you not still at least respect them for voluntarily putting themselves in harm's way for your benefit?

It is ironic to me that those who value so much their freedom to be a naysayer, do not support or respect those who actually made the sacrifices neccessary for their freedom to be a naysayer to exist!

I cannot have respect for these naysayer people, who are unwilling to put themselves in harm's way for any other human being!!!

They aren't protecting my freedom.

I can't respect someone that willingly puts themselves in harms way for an idiotic purpose.

Bobcat1 · #69 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuatara

Who said anything about Fox? I bet you don't even know what propaganda is.
Which of the following quotes is propaganda?
1. If you're not with us, You're against us.
2. The US military fights for freedom and democracy.
3. I will vow to rid the world of evil-doers.

Answer: All the above

Since you provide no source, it would seem attributing words to people and then labelling those people as propagandists is, in itself, the worst kind of propaganda.

Quote:

And it is our right to voice our objections whenever a country is engaging is something we don't agree with. Especially when it is wrong or illegal and kills hundreds of thousands of innocents.

Which anyone in the US may do. But we're discussing people in the military, who also have the right to express their views, so long as it doesn't compromise their mission. Consequently, your statement is inaccurate. Soldiers can believe whatever they want, but they have an oath to serve their country, regardless of their personal opinions.

If they cannot live up to that oath, then they never should have made it. Thus, they are deserters.

Quote:

You mean like Bush and his administration? Or are you talking about me. Are you implying that I should just keep quiet and never dissent when I feel a certain policy is wrong. How Totalitarian of you. Funny how you guys pretend to claim you're against Totalitarian style governments yet you show examples of supporting it.

This is a very weak straw-man argument. You'll have to try harder. A soldier who swears to obey his Commander-In-Chief one week, and then decides the next week he's going to do what he pleases, is the one who is acting like a child. He does not decide the law, but society as a whole does. What if some conservative general decided on his own to go invade Syria or Iran, because he disagreed with government policy? Should we pin a badge on him as a hero too for following his conscience and breaking his oath? I think not.

Quote:

Yes, they either perpetuated the propaganda themselves or where the victims of it.
Tell me, how would you feel if a soldier was ordered to fire on a group of pre-schoolers. Do you support his oath then or do you support his dishonor if he feels to not take orders. Also noticed you glossed over my Nazi analogy.

The Code of Military conduct is long, tried, and very clear in these circumstances. And fortunately, this is not what we are debating. (By the way, this is your second Straw-man argument. Better than the last, but not good enough.) Congress authorized the war, not the killing of little children.

Quote:

No nation in the world would ever do war crimes, acts of genocide, illegal invasions, countless killings of civilians if they didn't blindly follow the orders of their leaders. Every mass killing throughout history was done by willing men to take up arms and kill for reasons none other than propaganda. Our side is right, their side is wrong.

You know what, I just read this whole paragraph, and it really has no bearing on what we're discussing. But I'm glad you got it off your chest.

JavaBlack · #70 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuatara

No nation in the world would ever do war crimes, acts of genocide, illegal invasions, countless killings of civilians if they didn't blindly follow the orders of their leaders. Every mass killing throughout history was done by willing men to take up arms and kill for reasons none other than propaganda. Our side is right, their side is wrong.

I'm not so sure that holds true in the context of modern wars.
Most of the atrocities committed by US soldiers in today's wars are not by the direction of generals... but simply soldiers who had flipped their lids or had a sadistic streak.
They generally get court-marshalled (as long as the military doesn't attempt to cover it up for PR's sake... I think that's why I see it as a good thing that the media report these incidents... Otherwise they'd usually get covered up under the pretense of "morale").

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