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Originally Posted by Wildbore
Just because he said "everything in the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state," doesn't mean that it is by defualt socialism. This is a common mistake people make, that statism somehow equates to socialism. Statism is only a process, the result of statism determines whether or not the process is ultimately left-wing or right-wing. He never said anything about the state having an obligation to abolish poverty, reduce economic injustice, or create a classless society, which is what socialism advocates. Fascist states rarely advocate for any of those things.
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Look at the revised definition by Mussolini.
- Lowering the minimum voting age to eighteen, the minimum age for representatives to twenty-five, and universal suffrage, including for women.
- "The abolition of the Senate and the creation of a national technical council on intellectual and manual labor, industry, commerce, and culture."
- "A foreign policy aimed at expanding Italy's will and power in opposition to all foreign imperialisms."
- The prompt enactment of a state law sanctioning a legal workday of eight actual hours of work for all workers.
- The obligation of the state to build "rigidly secular" schools for the raising of "the proletariat's moral and cultural condition."
- The seizure of all goods belonging to religious congregations and the abolition of episcopal revenues.
- The "review" of all military contracts and the "sequestration of 85% of all war profits."
- Repeal of titles of nobility
- A minimum wage
- End of the draft.
- Forcing landowners to cultivate their lands or have them expropriated .
- A large progressive tax on capital that would amount to a one-time partial expropriation of all riches.
- The creation of various government bodies run by the workers.
- Reform of the old-age and pension system and the establishment of age limits for hazardous work.
- The nationalization of all arms and explosives industries.
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He may have been the first to define fascism. That doesn't mean that fascism doesn't evolve, and that new definitions aren't warranted by scholars who have studied it for their whole lives.
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New ideologies may form, but I am talking about Fascism (see definition above.)
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Sometimes protectionist tariffs fail to be effective in allowing one to compete. Nationalization or huge subsidies are the only alternative. That doesn't mean that once you are competing, nationalization cannot be reversed or subsidies cannot be diminished.
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This argument does not make any sense in terms of economics. Tariffs allow for local industries to develop because the demand for the product is there while the foreign supplies are kept more expense than the local ones or kept out all together.
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He was considered a classical liberal. Clinton and Chretien were liberals, they followed Adam Smiths ideas, and they were responsible for expanding free trade to Mexico.
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Classical and contemporary liberals are complete opposites. Look them both up. Clinton was a moderate, I don't know about Chretien though.
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Once he saw how religion has a power to unite, he would have reconsidered.
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The ultimate goal was the destruction or complete assimilation of Christianity into the fascist movement entirely for its own ends.
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No, the extreme right will use rampant government intervention to defend conservative values and national security. The economy would be more controlled, to eliminate foreign influence, but not absolutely controlled like a Communist state.
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Sorry, but neocons are not conservatives. Conservatives hate everything about government, but accept that it must exist to some extent. Christian fundamentalists are not conservative either.
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Clinton and Obama do support free-trade globally. They are liberals and liberals generally support free trade.
Islamic countries are the most socially conservative places in the world. Theres also an Arab Free Trade Agreement, which works exactly like NAFTA. And unlike NAFTA, its not being threatened to be abolished/renegotiated. If they were so "left-wing," seemingly they would be pluralist, secular, progressive, anti-free trade places. But they are the opposite, they are very right-wing.
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You say that Clinton and Obama do support free-trade globally, then you say that NAFTA is being threatened to be abolished/renegotiated. Did you ever bother to find out who came up with this idea? Yeah, it was Obama. Conservatives support free trade, liberals support "fair" trade. Pluralism and secularism are both conservative movements. The left wing can be very socially conservative. Prohibition was a left-wing movement, and so was segregation.
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I wouldn't call it right-wing. But nationalism is mostly a tool of right-wingers.
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Could we agree that nationalism is neither left nor right?
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Fascism has no desire for the workers to overthrow the elites. They want the workers and elites to work together in harmony, which is what ended up happening in fascist states.
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Once again, you use the Marxist vision of what is left wing. Just because fascism is not
exactly like Marxism does not mean its right wing. This is about as close to Marxism as you can get.
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Fascists and Communists did compete for the same working class support, because you cannot start any revolution without that support. But fascists reconciled workers and elites, whereas communists massacred elites in great numbers.
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See above.
A very fine distinction indeed.
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I am not denying that fact, I am simply broader-minded in my approach.
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And I am explicit.
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No where, even in Mussolini's definition, does it imply that monopolies must exist. All he is suggesting is companies may be independently owned, as long as they are owned by Italians and are cooperative with the government.
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Fascism embodies a corporatist system. In this system, government run monopolies run the economy, based on the different sectors of industry that they run.
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Even the US, the symbol of capitalism, occassionally does the same thing. It intervened when Dubai Ports tried to buy a port. A huge part of your Republican Party is fixated to national security (like Fascists), and believed national security should trump such deals because they put strategic assets at risk. I guess that means the Republican party is left-wing now, because they stand up for national security?
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The US is not pure capitalism, it's too liberal. To imply that only right-wingers are focused on national security is fallicitous. Traditionally, the highest military budgets are those for Communist countries. YES, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS LEFT WING, FOR MANY DIFFERENT REASONS.
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Nope, Fascism has no desire to abolish the economic unequality in a state. Communism does.
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A statement made by Nazi ideologist, Gregor Strasser, "We are socialists. We are enemies, deadly enemies, of today's capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, its unfair wage system, its immoral way of judging the worth of human beings in terms of their wealth and their money, instead of their responsibility and their performance, and we are determined to destroy this system whatever happens."
Also see Mussolini's definition of Fascism above.
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Your definitions are invalid. They are on opposite ends of the sprectum because fascism is a right-wing ideology, communism is a left-wing ideology.
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This is the circular logic logical fallacy.
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On your sprectum, you magically removed the level of authoritarianism from the right side of the sprectum, which by default places any authoritarian ideology on the left. Even monarchy and theocracy would be left-wing under your sprectum. So you created a self-fulfilling prophecy for youself, you believed fascism was right wing, and you even changed the sprectum so that this would end up being true.
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There was no magic involved. To an extent, monarchy and theocracy are left wing. The political spectrum that most people use has no meaning what so ever, so to say that one thing is left wing and one is right wing means nothing. I explained this in my second post on this thread, I believe.
05-16-2008, 10:20 PM
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