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Old 05-09-2008, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SpankyTheWhale View Post
This article is actually what I believe, but I don't think I can personally handle it because I think I became a bigot in the process of learning politics. I desperately want to stay umber one, without dispute. I do fervently desire that the rest of the world catch up to how we are now, but the caveat in my mind that causes me worries is that at the same time, I want us to remain one (or twenty) step ahead. No matter how good the rest of the world gets, I want the United States to be indisputably better in every way. Again, I would like nothing better than for there to be complete peace and for the world to enjoy a high standard of living, as high as can be. However, I really, really, really want our system in the United States to be so good that it will always safely outrun the stampede. Can any of you interpret this as tolerance instead of bigotry?
sure.
if the US is out in front of everyone,
then it makes everyone elses progression that much easier.
its kinda like ...
... having an older brother as a senior,
when you're a freshman.
he's seen it all,
he's done it all,
and if some kid takes your lunch money,
he can put the smack down for you.
it's actually quite charitable of us to voluntarily lead the way,
and not bigotous at all.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
I believe the only reason that we might not adapt is because of the red tape, restrictions and subsidiaries given to the free market.
You have a point... but the real problem is in the root:
fear of globalization.
As long as people fear globalization due to pessimism about their own economic resilience and xenophobia, we will hinder our own process of adapting.

That's why I tend to agree with a certain branch of pro-globalization liberals (like Thomas Friedman and the guy who wrote this article) in believing we need a strong safety net, universal healthcare, and programs that help individuals adapt to changes.
Sometimes the economic conservatives forget to take into account the nature of people outside of markets.
While we need to remove subsidies, overbearing corporate tax rates, and other hindering regulations, we also need to provide the kinds of programs that help the individuals in this country adapt. If the individuals are insecure, then we will go protectionist.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
You have a point... but the real problem is in the root:
fear of globalization.
As long as people fear globalization due to pessimism about their own economic resilience and xenophobia, we will hinder our own process of adapting.

That's why I tend to agree with a certain branch of pro-globalization liberals (like Thomas Friedman and the guy who wrote this article) in believing we need a strong safety net, universal healthcare, and programs that help individuals adapt to changes.
Sometimes the economic conservatives forget to take into account the nature of people outside of markets.
While we need to remove subsidies, overbearing corporate tax rates, and other hindering regulations, we also need to provide the kinds of programs that help the individuals in this country adapt. If the individuals are insecure, then we will go protectionist.
Exactly! because the government knows how to spend my money better than I do. You just don't get it. You're giving up a freedom so that you can have a little order. Well I don't like taking orders. I'm an individualist. There is NO gain from universal healthcare (or any other socialist program) that doesn't either hurt the economy or forces people to pay.

This is another one of those short run/long run economic cycles that you can't seem to understand. People will lose their job. Those people will relocate and reeducate. And that will restore balance to the force (I figured you'd understand starwars a little easier).

As far as the economics of universal healthcare, I'm sure I've explained it to you before. I don't feel like feeling the frustration of you not listening/understanding. So just admit you're wrong now and save us the trouble.
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:10 AM
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You know in the 80's the same thing was said about how the Japanese were going to over takes us Blah Blah Blah.

Even with the weak dollar its still 103 Yen to 1 US Dollar
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
This is another one of those short run/long run economic cycles that you can't seem to understand. People will lose their job. Those people will relocate and reeducate. And that will restore balance to the force (I figured you'd understand starwars a little easier).
They will,eh?
Or will they panic and start calling for greater protectionism and isolationism? Maybe start taking on a more xenophobic worldview, getting scared of all them foreigners that might come in to compete for the jobs that are disappearing...

You're taking on some kind of a deterministic stand. You assume that things do fix themselves.
Not always. Sometimes systems collapse. Sometimes they retreat into protectionist systems that slow growth and actually impede the economy more than if we just did something to ease the pain!

The problem is that the economy does not exist independent of the rest of society. All the economic assumptions you make assume that order remains, that people carry on, that no one panics, that stuff just happens automatically.

I can also predict that someone who eats several pounds of cheese will eventually pass it... but I'd still suggest laxatives.

The point is that by cutting down the pain people feel from the global economic changes and boosting their feeling of security, they will be eased into making those rational decisions rather than panicing and demanding radical change and rioting in the streets.
Rioting in the streets... I hate to tell you... is pretty bad for the economy when it comes down to it.

Complete disorder and a population that demands insane levels of protectionism... well, that leads to more economic distress than slightly higher taxes.

See, the world is not in its whole just a wonderful free market economy where everything runs smooth if no one screws with it. It's an anarchic place where we manage to keep a free market only because people overall agree to its rules. When people stop agreeing... it goes back to anarchy.
You can call that a "free market" in a sense... but the currency tends to be more like blood.
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
They will,eh?
Or will they panic and start calling for greater protectionism and isolationism? Maybe start taking on a more xenophobic worldview, getting scared of all them foreigners that might come in to compete for the jobs that are disappearing...

You're taking on some kind of a deterministic stand. You assume that things do fix themselves.
Not always. Sometimes systems collapse. Sometimes they retreat into protectionist systems that slow growth and actually impede the economy more than if we just did something to ease the pain!

The problem is that the economy does not exist independent of the rest of society. All the economic assumptions you make assume that order remains, that people carry on, that no one panics, that stuff just happens automatically.

I can also predict that someone who eats several pounds of cheese will eventually pass it... but I'd still suggest laxatives.

The point is that by cutting down the pain people feel from the global economic changes and boosting their feeling of security, they will be eased into making those rational decisions rather than panicing and demanding radical change and rioting in the streets.
Rioting in the streets... I hate to tell you... is pretty bad for the economy when it comes down to it.

Complete disorder and a population that demands insane levels of protectionism... well, that leads to more economic distress than slightly higher taxes.

See, the world is not in its whole just a wonderful free market economy where everything runs smooth if no one screws with it. It's an anarchic place where we manage to keep a free market only because people overall agree to its rules. When people stop agreeing... it goes back to anarchy.
You can call that a "free market" in a sense... but the currency tends to be more like blood.
You're so right! and Universal healthcare is just another one of those isms that corrupts the free market. People shouldn't question these things, but they do, and that leads to things like protectionism and universal healthcare which corrupt the system and make it work less smoothly.

And to make sure I prove my point, Don't you think it's odd that democrats are screaming universal healthcare? Is there any other possible way to consider economic "help" from the government? I sure hope so, after all, liberals are the ones that try to impresses everyone with their college intelligence. I would assume that they have better problem solving abilities than that.
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazan View Post
You know in the 80's the same thing was said about how the Japanese were going to over takes us Blah Blah Blah.

Even with the weak dollar its still 103 Yen to 1 US Dollar
you fail to recognize that before the 80's devaluation of the dollar against the yen the exchange rate was $1 = 360 yen. in a short period of time, buying things Japanese increaed by 3.5 times

let's see how well the dollar is doing against the euro:


similar to the decline against the yen, the decline of the dollar against the euro causes you to need $136 dollars today to buy what cost $100 dollars 5 years ago in the european community
maybe you just have an inability to "appreciate" the depreciation of the dollar against the other major world currencies. it makes their stuff more expensive for us to buy while it makes our stuff cheaper for them to buy. unless you are either making stuff for them to buy or international tourists represent a sizable portion of your market, your holdings (your relative wealth) in the world market are (is) diminishing. feel better now?
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:09 AM
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isn't the euro above the $1.5 mark?
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It doesn't matter who we elect, it doesn't matter what they've done or who they've done, what is important is what they actually do. Too many politicians are politicians - they like to talk about useless issues and keep people in the dark about the real issue: money. I will always care more about what the government tells me I have to spend my money on, opposed to some unborn assassination. Freedom is the right to chose, on everything.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
isn't the euro above the $1.5 mark?
do the math; your stated rate is correct
EuroExchangeRate to U.S. Dollar
1May
1.5463
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
do the math; your stated rate is correct
EuroExchangeRate to U.S. Dollar
1May
1.5463
do the math? for 136 to equal 100, the euro must equal 1.36 per one dollar.
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It doesn't matter who we elect, it doesn't matter what they've done or who they've done, what is important is what they actually do. Too many politicians are politicians - they like to talk about useless issues and keep people in the dark about the real issue: money. I will always care more about what the government tells me I have to spend my money on, opposed to some unborn assassination. Freedom is the right to chose, on everything.

Last edited by Raharu Haruha; 05-09-2008 at 09:17 AM.
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