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Old 05-13-2008, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hairymarx View Post
There is actually no evidence that Jesus existed and the bible is full of contradictions.
WRONG!!!!

Historians of that period recorded Jesus Existence, and they were not followers of his!!!
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hairymarx View Post
There is actually no evidence that Jesus existed and the bible is full of contradictions.
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious "Christians " ("named after Christus" which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44 ).
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hairymarx View Post
There is actually no evidence that Jesus existed and the bible is full of contradictions.
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 1.

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover, and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of his followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:33 PM
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Daybreaker:

Romans 13:1-7 says, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever, therefore, resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and they that resist shall receive to themselves judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou, then, not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same; for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore, ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath but also for conscience sake. For, for this cause pay ye tribute also; for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render, therefore, to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
Socialism by todays standards, is a government that forces wealth distribution on its citizens. There is no evidence of support for that in ANY of the passages quoted.
I know. This is why I said, not facetiously, that you must study the Torah, if you would like to be accurate on this subject. It would not have been mentioned as such in The Book Of Acts, nor necessarily anyplace else in the B'rit Hadasha (New Testament).
This was before Yisrael had a king. The Holy Temple was akin to the US Treasury, if you will. The Levites were the priestly tribe. In other words, the administrators of all governmental affairs. Citizens of Yisrael were instructed by YHWH through the priests to provide for the government, which would in turn provide for the needy.
I am not preparred to give a lesson on Torah at the moment, but I'll furnish a few examples.

The inescapable 10% flat tax:
V'yakra (Leviticus) 27:30-33
30 " 'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 The entire tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod—will be holy to the LORD. 33 He must not pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If he does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.' "

Where the tax was to be kept, so that the sick, old, injured, and needy could have access to it:
Malakhi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house...
(Notice that He did not say, "Keep it safe at your house until you meet someone who needs it.")

An additional tax for the poor from landowners:
V'yakra 23:22
" 'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.' "

There are many other examples I might give, but as I said, not presently. But the society that was established in the Torah was one in which families worked hard for their own provisions, but also were commanded to provide for those who could not provide for themselves.
BTW, I'm not advocating for a socialist America. I'm simply discussing this subject.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by hairymarx View Post
There is actually no evidence that Jesus existed and the bible is full of contradictions.
It depends on what you accept as evidence, doesn't it?
The overwhelming majority of secular and religious historians would disagreee with you.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
This point has been raised a few times, so I dug up some biblical gospel passages for putting forward the hypothesis that Jesus' views were in fact socialist in a proto-Marxist way. I encourage discussion on this point and for opinions on how you think Jesus' views were or were not socialist in their orientation.



Clearly an advocation of collective ownership, as opposed to private ownership, and equal distribution of wealth for 'need'.
Clearly it was done by choice of the members and not forced upon the individuals by a government.



I see a further advocation of collectivism, this time with a specific note on land redistribution etc.



You'll notice a constant theme of Jesus is that rich people (capitalists) are not going to get into Heaven etc.
Never did he say rich people (or capitalists) are not going to Heaven, he said it was difficult for them, not because the rich person held onto their money instead of giving it away, but that they trusted in their wealth more than God.



Finally, Jesus gave an account of the Last Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, in which he identifies himself with the hungry, the poor and the sick, and states that good or evil done upon "the least of [God's] brethren" will be counted as good or evil done upon God himself. The fact that nations rather than individuals would be judged according to the characteristics of their societies, would thus directly imply that political and economic systems were being heavily critiqued as well:
I like the liberal view here that because the Bible says this we can jam it down your throat, but lets keep religion out of the public sector. Jesus says that the love you show is what you will be judged by. Not forced good will, but good will done with a joyful heart. I don't and never will pay taxes with a joyful heart. I do though give to charity 10% of my income with a joyful heart. That is not money that goes to a church or religious organization but to true people in need.



In addition, communist references can be found in Leviticus 25:35-38:

"If one [...] becomes poor [...] help him [...] so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God [...] You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God." and Acts 4:32-35, "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had [...] there were no needy persons among them [...] the money [...] was distributed to anyone as he had need." As well as Acts 2:42-47, "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching [...] to the breaking of bread [...] everyone was filled with awe [...] all the believers were together and had everything in common [...] they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they [...] ate together with glad and sincere hearts [...] "
You are trying to justify a political system that forces people to be poor by Bible references that don't speak of that. Jesus spoke in individual terms and spoke of choices you should make for yourself, not that the government should make for you.
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Old 05-13-2008, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
How about you try and disprove my assertion using biblical evidence, as I did, rather than just meaninglessly trolling?

Don't get me wrong, I knew the religious Right was based on outright biblical falsifications and lies anyway, your just confirming my point.
Please show me where the religious right is based on Biblical falsifications.

A link instead of useless trolling.
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ixtellor View Post
Its funnier when a person who advocates murdering innocent people because of their skin color or political affiliations, thinks they know ANYTHING about Jesus.
It's even funnier when a poster has to tell lies about another poster to make a point that could never be made if that poster was being truthful.

But that's liberalism for ya......
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:40 PM
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It's even funnier when a poster has to tell lies about another poster to make a point that could never be made if that poster was being truthful.

But that's liberalism for ya......
Why let truth get in the way.
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