They never have in the past....

L. Gordan Ryland's book "Did Jesus ever live?" pointed out nearly 70 years ago:

"All the knowledge that the Rabbis had of Jesus was obtained by them from the Gospels. Seeing that Jews, even in the present more critical age, take it for granted that the figure of a real man stands behind the Gospel narrative, one need not be surprised if, in the second century, Jews did not think of questioning that assumption. It is certain however, that some did question it. For Justin, in his dialogue with Trypho, represents the Jew Trypho as saying:

"Ye follow an empty rumour and make a Christ for yourselves, "If he was born and lived somewhere he is entirely unknown."

Not only is there no evidence of the existence of Jesus in Jewish or Pagan sources, there also is no legitimacy in the biblical evidence of the existence of him as an historical figure in the Gospels.

The Gospels are an unknown origin and authorship and there is no good reason to suppose they are eye-witness accounts of a man named Jesus of Nazareth. It is clear that the Gospels of Matthew and Luke could not possibly have been written by an eye-witness of the tales they tell. Both writers plagiarize up to 90 percent of the Gospel of Mark, to which they add sayings of Jesus and would-be historical details. Ignoring the fact that Matthew and Luke contradict each other in such critical details as the genealogy of Jesus - and thus cannot both be correct - we ask why real eye-witnessess would have to plagiarize the entire nuts and bolts of the story, contending themselves with adding merely a little gravy, salt and pepper?

Although Christian apologists have listed a number of ancient historians who allegedly were witnesses to the existence of Jesus, the only two that are consistently cited are Josephus and Tacitus. Since Josephus was born in the year 37 CE, and Tacitus was born in 55, neither could have been an eye-witness of Jesus, who supposedly was crucified in 30 CE.

Michael Martin discussed Jesus's existence in his book "The Case Against Christianity (1991). He is professor of Philosophy from Boston University. He concluded that there was insufficient evidence to conclude that Jesus existed.

I wonder how many of the people who existed at that time were never written about? Were they less real than a person who was actually written about?

How many of those individuals claimed to be the savior of the world?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

__________________

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...It smells like victory.

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Bugalugs: "people join the military because they are stupid and gullible."

There were quite a few during that time who claimed to be the Messiah. Did they also not really exist?



I do not remember Jesus ever making such a claim about himself.....

But I would say the fact that Christianity is the most popular religion in the world, that Jesus had a full third of the Bible dedicated to him and that we are still discussing him 2000 years after his death is quite extraordinary.

Were they actually the messiah?

If this is going to disintegrate into a religious debate, I'm going to move this thread to the religion board. It's here purely because of it's political aspect. To that end, I counter:
According to the Bible, Jesus was not, in fact, a socialist. In fact, Jesus was a communalist.

Jesus stated clearly a separation of roles between the church and the state, i.e., Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God's what is God's.

Thus, the role of government was separate and distinct from the role of the church. The role of the church was to distinguish itself as different from the world, secular government, etc., i.e., to be salt and light. The church was to take on the role of serving societal needs in order to show that difference (Matthew 25--I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, etc.). In no way and in no place does Jesus ever suggest that the state (aka Caesar) should take on the role of the church, or vice versa (thus, Socialism).

Communalism is different, because it is small groups living a self-imposed lifestyle of sharing for the common good, meeting one another's needs, usually for religious reasons. Socialism occurs when the government steps into this role.

If anything, Socialism represents the antithesis of the message of Jesus Christ, i.e., that the state (caesar) becomes the message (salt/light).

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In now way should this imply that I actually believe this. I just find the topic interesting and feel it should be addressed thoughtfully.

__________________

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...It smells like victory.

************************************************** ***
Bugalugs: "people join the military because they are stupid and gullible."

I am quite happy for people to continue believing in the fairy story that is Jesus Christ. What I am not happy about are those warmongers/Christian fundamentalists in power who use his name as a pretext for their crucades of domination.

How about warmongers who don't believe in the Christ myth?

I suppose that would include Sadistic Savior and myself.

__________________

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...It smells like victory.

************************************************** ***
Bugalugs: "people join the military because they are stupid and gullible."

Hard to say.



How do you have a discussion about Jesus and ignore the religious aspect?????????????????


The book of Acts is about 'Christians' who chose communal living AFTER Jesus died. But I understand your point and agree......to some degree.


That is true. And one interpretation is that Jesus was saying that NOTHING belongs to Caesar.

I disagree with that interpretation since Jesus in fact paid the tax. Why argue it, even if you don't believe in Jesus? Because it's interesting, and it is a common misinterpretation of the Gospel made by leftists.

WE can use the new testament to argue what, in theory, Jesus said. But I don't believe in Christianity, personally. I just find the bible an interesting book. It's no different than reading Plato's Rhetoric and discussing how Plato and Aristotle would have argued a particular position.

To me it is fiction/philosophy/theory.

Though, there are some good things in there...I love Matthew 25. If there is in fact a god, the best way to serve him is clearly by taking care of those in need.

__________________

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...It smells like victory.

************************************************** ***
Bugalugs: "people join the military because they are stupid and gullible."