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Old 05-14-2008, 10:58 AM
chainyanker chainyanker is offline
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A recent Wall Street Journal/NBC News survey found 27% of those polled nationwide approve of the Republican Party and the Bush administration. This tells me that about 27% of the people in this country are incapable of critical thinking. They only know 'what' to think not 'how' to think. The 'what' is slurped up from the trough of fear mongering and ignorance spewed out from the likes of 'No Doubt' Cheney...neocon pablum. A recent example being the disillusioned 'Iraq is a tremendous success!' declaration from Mr. 'No Doubt.' as in 'There is No Doubt Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.') Let's look at some current observations:

1) As of today 4076 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq (increasing death rate in recent weeks).

2) More than 29,000 have been wounded, with thousands suffering horrific injuries (did you see the news clip of the surviving soldier with nearly half his skull gone?)

3) The monthly cost of the Iraq war is around $12.5 billion a month according to a new book published by Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz and co-writer Linda Bilmes with total cost estimated at $3 trillion if troops don't leave completely before 2017. ('$30-40 billion tops' and '60 - 90 day cakewalk' --- 'Donald Duck' Rumsfeld in 2003)

4) Somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion.
(so much for pro-life beliefs)

5) More than 4 million Iraqis have been displaced, 2 million of them to other countries, many of them in untenable economic and social situations.

6) Purple-fingered elections have only resulted in an unenforceable constitution and an inept and hapless Iraqi government wrought with corruption, confined to the Green Zone (aka Fort Apache.) and sucking more than 15% (20 to 30% by some estimates) of the Iraqi oil production into the black market.

7) Billions wasted on reconstruction (did they ever finish that multi-million dollar women and children's hospital in southern Iraq that was boasted about by Laura Bush? Last I saw on the news it was over half done and construction had stopped with no plans to continue.)

8 ) General Petraeus recently declaring 'we haven't turned the corner and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.' (Actually many corners have been turned and each time the coalition and Iraqi government have gone down some dark murky alley and gotten mugged, after turning enough corners they've managed to circle back to what looks like the original corner, thus the General's declaration.)

9) The main political party of the majority Shiites call themselves 'The Supreme Islamic Council of Iraq', this sure doesn't give me good democracy vibes about what Senator McCain calls 'success in Iraq': turning it into another Iowa by his definition and having troops stay there for years more (getting picked off for another 100 years?)

10) Average electricity availability is 8 hours/day, used to be 24 hours pre-invasion.

11) Now Iran has gotten their foot in the Iraqi door, thanks to the invasion. (What will this wrought?)

Many more points could be listed and none of them point to a 'tremendous success' but rather an abysmal catastrophe. Any success points are far outweighed by the issues that point to continuing strife and lost of life at enormous cost and more regional instability. Yet there are fools in this country who think all this is a 'tremendous success' because they don't question, they only open their mouths for more toxic pablum...and they think all this is good for the country...totally naive. The bottomline is the U.S. is in a colossal mess thanks to neocon ideology.
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by chainyanker View Post
A recent Wall Street Journal/NBC News survey found 27% of those polled nationwide approve of the Republican Party and the Bush administration. This tells me that about 27% of the people in this country are incapable of critical thinking. They only know 'what' to think not 'how' to think. The 'what' is slurped up from the trough of fear mongering and ignorance spewed out from the likes of 'No Doubt' Cheney...neocon pablum. A recent example being the disillusioned 'Iraq is a tremendous success!' declaration from Mr. 'No Doubt.' as in 'There is No Doubt Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.') Let's look at some current observations:

1) As of today 4076 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq (increasing death rate in recent weeks).

2) More than 29,000 have been wounded, with thousands suffering horrific injuries (did you see the news clip of the surviving soldier with nearly half his skull gone?)

3) The monthly cost of the Iraq war is around $12.5 billion a month according to a new book published by Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz and co-writer Linda Bilmes with total cost estimated at $3 trillion if troops don't leave completely before 2017. ('$30-40 billion tops' and '60 - 90 day cakewalk' --- 'Donald Duck' Rumsfeld in 2003)

4) Somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion.
(so much for pro-life beliefs)

5) More than 4 million Iraqis have been displaced, 2 million of them to other countries, many of them in untenable economic and social situations.

6) Purple-fingered elections have only resulted in an unenforceable constitution and an inept and hapless Iraqi government wrought with corruption, confined to the Green Zone (aka Fort Apache.) and sucking more than 15% (20 to 30% by some estimates) of the Iraqi oil production into the black market.

7) Billions wasted on reconstruction (did they ever finish that multi-million dollar women and children's hospital in southern Iraq that was boasted about by Laura Bush? Last I saw on the news it was over half done and construction had stopped with no plans to continue.)

8 ) General Petraeus recently declaring 'we haven't turned the corner and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.' (Actually many corners have been turned and each time the coalition and Iraqi government have gone down some dark murky alley and gotten mugged, after turning enough corners they've managed to circle back to what looks like the original corner, thus the General's declaration.)

9) The main political party of the majority Shiites call themselves 'The Supreme Islamic Council of Iraq', this sure doesn't give me good democracy vibes about what Senator McCain calls 'success in Iraq': turning it into another Iowa by his definition and having troops stay there for years more (getting picked off for another 100 years?)

10) Average electricity availability is 8 hours/day, used to be 24 hours pre-invasion.

11) Now Iran has gotten their foot in the Iraqi door, thanks to the invasion. (What will this wrought?)

Many more points could be listed and none of them point to a 'tremendous success' but rather an abysmal catastrophe. Any success points are far outweighed by the issues that point to continuing strife and lost of life at enormous cost and more regional instability. Yet there are fools in this country who think all this is a 'tremendous success' because they don't question, they only open their mouths for more toxic pablum...and they think all this is good for the country...totally naive. The bottomline is the U.S. is in a colossal mess thanks to neocon ideology.

Well Yanker,

Before I buy any of that diatribe, show me evidence that any wartime president's approval ratings were high after the war had gone on a while and the end was not yet in sight!!!

Oh and while you are at it, find me a war that the US has been involved in previously that took this long with such a low loss of life number!
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:11 AM
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Well Yanker,

Before I buy any of that diatribe, show me evidence that any wartime president's approval ratings were high after the war had gone on a while and the end was not yet in sight!!!

Oh and while you are at it, find me a war that the US has been involved in previously that took this long with such a low loss of life number!
We are not at war. Only Congress can declare war.
This is Bush's private police action.


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Old 05-14-2008, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ixtellor View Post
We are not at war. Only Congress can declare war.
This is Bush's private police action.


Ixtellor
OK Junior, just try not to get yourself upset and take your medication.
EDIT TO REMOVE POINTLESS INSULT.

Last edited by stekim; 05-15-2008 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Ixtellor View Post
We are not at war. Only Congress can declare war.
This is Bush's private police action.


Ixtellor
Congress voted for the use of force in Iraq. With this legislation, the congress declared war.
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:36 AM
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Congress voted for the use of force in Iraq. With this legislation, the congress declared war.
Nice, I enjoy someone who DOES WORK along with the post.
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:07 PM
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Since WWII, the executive power has grown in strength to the point that it doesn't need Congress to vote to go to war (which requires a 2/3 majority), instead there can be a bill passed (only a majority vote) granting the president the right to use force. Its an easier way of declaring war.

Although not a formally a "war" like WWII, it is nevertheless a war. Which way you want to legalistically pin-point your opinion I don't think really matters.

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Old 05-15-2008, 01:07 AM
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To stay on topic here....

I dont really see how anyone can still support this administration anymore. ALthough I think Iraq was a mistake, I really dont see it as the biggest issue.

I served over there....So clearly I care about the number of casualties we have taken and the number of wounded. With that said though its INCREDIBLY LOW for a large scale war. That doesn't make it any easier for those families who have lost loved ones, and certainly the amount of dead Iraqi's is high and that is unfortunate, but still for a war it is low.

And while I didnt like our reasons for going to war with Iraq, I think continuing to harp on that is almost as counter productive to our nation as going to war in the first place. We are there, we need to accept that and find plausible and meaningful solutions on how to WIN over there and how to get our troops home.

My biggest issue with the Bush admin is the spending to be honest. The guy cuts taxes and then spends like a full blown Liberal. That is the stupidest economic policy known to man and regardless of what anyone says our economy is a disaster because of it.

I dont feel he has done enough about illegal immigration (I think citizenship needs to be easier to obtain, however im still against illegal immigration), his spending is out of control, I dont like the fact that he advocates torture, I dont like the wire tapping, I dont like the fear tactics his administration has used, I dont like his absurd ties to big business, and I DO feel they have misled the American people on quite a few things.

Iraq was a dumb war, but honestly I can think of MUCH worse things than removing Saddam Hussein who was a cold blooded killer. I DO think the Bush admin lied about WMD's and I dont feel Iraq was necessary because there were other more important problems to deal with first (such as finishing the job in Afghanistan). However I just dont see Iraq as being some insanely evil thing like most fellow liberals do.

So the only way I can explain the fact that some people still support him is that I think they support the war...Which I dont have TOO much of a problem with like I already explained, I think they appreciate his low taxes even though they probably dont like the spending, I think they generally support him for the "moral" issues he has in common with them, and yeah for some of them its probably partisan.

Overall though I think they are just 100% behind him for going after Islamic Extremists and that is of the upmost importance to that particular group of Americans. I dont see anything wrong with that, its simply a disagreement I have with that almost 3 out of 10 people in this country. Im not going to attack them, lets have the debate and try to change minds instead of starting fights.
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Old 05-15-2008, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by akc814ilv View Post
To stay on topic here....

I dont really see how anyone can still support this administration anymore. ALthough I think Iraq was a mistake, I really dont see it as the biggest issue.

I served over there....So clearly I care about the number of casualties we have taken and the number of wounded. With that said though its INCREDIBLY LOW for a large scale war. That doesn't make it any easier for those families who have lost loved ones, and certainly the amount of dead Iraqi's is high and that is unfortunate, but still for a war it is low.

And while I didnt like our reasons for going to war with Iraq, I think continuing to harp on that is almost as counter productive to our nation as going to war in the first place. We are there, we need to accept that and find plausible and meaningful solutions on how to WIN over there and how to get our troops home.

My biggest issue with the Bush admin is the spending to be honest. The guy cuts taxes and then spends like a full blown Liberal. That is the stupidest economic policy known to man and regardless of what anyone says our economy is a disaster because of it.

I dont feel he has done enough about illegal immigration (I think citizenship needs to be easier to obtain, however im still against illegal immigration), his spending is out of control, I dont like the fact that he advocates torture, I dont like the wire tapping, I dont like the fear tactics his administration has used, I dont like his absurd ties to big business, and I DO feel they have misled the American people on quite a few things.

Iraq was a dumb war, but honestly I can think of MUCH worse things than removing Saddam Hussein who was a cold blooded killer. I DO think the Bush admin lied about WMD's and I dont feel Iraq was necessary because there were other more important problems to deal with first (such as finishing the job in Afghanistan). However I just dont see Iraq as being some insanely evil thing like most fellow liberals do.

So the only way I can explain the fact that some people still support him is that I think they support the war...Which I dont have TOO much of a problem with like I already explained, I think they appreciate his low taxes even though they probably dont like the spending, I think they generally support him for the "moral" issues he has in common with them, and yeah for some of them its probably partisan.

Overall though I think they are just 100% behind him for going after Islamic Extremists and that is of the upmost importance to that particular group of Americans. I dont see anything wrong with that, its simply a disagreement I have with that almost 3 out of 10 people in this country. Im not going to attack them, lets have the debate and try to change minds instead of starting fights.
I felt the same way about Slick Willie, and I apparently wasn't the only one as nobody would admit they voted for him back when he was in office!!!!
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Old 05-15-2008, 06:28 AM
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Oh and while you are at it, find me a war that the US has been involved in previously that took this long with such a low loss of life number!
What do you mean by "took this long"? Major combat operations ceased 5 years ago. Securing a country is not the same as being at war. Was Bush lying?

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