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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Daybreaker View Post
What does anybody stand to gain by attacking America?
Military contractors stand to gain. To some degree oil is probably cheaper now than if we didn't go to war.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha View Post
To some degree oil is probably cheaper now than if we didn't go to war.
Obviously, there's no way to prove this hypothetical.


One thing's for sure: it certainly hasn't made oil cheaper than it was before the war.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by f0ca1 View Post
Obviously, there's no way to prove this hypothetical.


One thing's for sure: it certainly hasn't made oil cheaper than it was before the war.
You're right, but there are a number of different events that could have meant the shut off of Arab oil if we were not there, but you're right, thinking ahead and trying to predict the future is foolish.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Anikdote View Post
9/11 happened, we got pissed and killed lots of people, and we haven't gotten attacked since then.
And we got lots of our own killed in the process.

Was sacrificing the lives of 4,000 Americans worth it in order to avenge the lives of 3,000 Americans?
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Anikdote View Post
9/11 happened, we got pissed and killed lots of people, and we haven't gotten attacked since then. Do you have a more reasonable assessment for why we haven't gotten attacked since then?
Yes. Instead of having to come over here to kill more Americans, we've sent Americans over there for them to kill. They have no need to attack us here when they can attack us over there and kill even more Americans than they did the first time. From the terrorist's point of view, 9/11 Phase 2 is even more successful than 9/11 Phase 1.
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Anikdote View Post
Logic led me here.
Your logic needs a little work.

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9/11 happened, we got pissed and killed lots of people, and we haven't gotten attacked since then.

Do you have a more reasonable assessment for why we haven't gotten attacked since then? Pretending that Saddam wasn't involved in terrorism is what I would consider true naivety.
How many years were there in between the first attack on the WTC and the 2nd?

I believe it was 8.

Please don't tell me you think that these guys all of the sudden got scared to do any kind of attack on American soil.

These cats plot and plan for years to pull off attacks like that. Heaven forbid that we have another major attack against us, but to sit and say the reason it hasn't happened is because we invaded Iraq is basically naive or just plain stupid.



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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
And we got lots of our own killed in the process.

Was sacrificing the lives of 4,000 Americans worth it in order to avenge the lives of 3,000 Americans?
I guess that depends on how many Americans would have died with out going to war. If they were allowed to pull off 2 or 3 more attacks, then it was very worth it. I heard they were going to attack the super bowl, I think that alone could have made it worth it.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by superbadbrutha View Post
Your logic needs a little work.

How many years were there in between the first attack on the WTC and the 2nd?

I believe it was 8.
So we're going to ignore all the other acts of terrorism that occured between WTC 1 and 2? Such as:

Quote:
Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.

1994

FARC Hostage-taking, September 23, 1994: FARC rebels kidnapped U.S. citizen Thomas Hargrove in Colombia.

Air France Hijacking, December 24, 1994: Members of the Armed Islamic Group seized an Air France Flight to Algeria. The four terrorists were killed during a rescue effort.

1995

Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.

Tokyo Subway Station Attack, March 20, 1995: Twelve persons were killed and 5,700 were injured in a Sarin nerve gas attack on a crowded subway station in the center of Tokyo, Japan. A similar attack occurred nearly simultaneously in the Yokohama subway system. The Aum Shinri-kyo cult was blamed for the attacks.

Kashmiri Hostage-taking, July 4, 1995: In India six foreigners, including two U.S. citizens, were taken hostage by Al-Faran, a Kashmiri separatist group. One non-U.S. hostage was later found beheaded.

Jerusalem Bus Attack, August 21, 1995: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb that killed 6 and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.

Attack on U.S. Embassy in Moscow, September 13, 1995: A rocket-propelled grenade was fired through the window of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, ostensibly in retaliation for U.S. strikes on Serb positions in Bosnia.

1996

Athens Embassy Attack, February 15, 1996: Unidentified assailants fired a rocket at the U.S. Embassy compound in Athens, causing minor damage to three diplomatic vehicles and some surrounding buildings. Circumstances of the attack suggested it was an operation carried out by the 17 November group.

HAMAS Bus Attack, February 26, 1996: In Jerusalem, a suicide bomber blew up a bus, killing 26 persons, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring some 80 persons, including three other US citizens.

Dizengoff Center Bombing, March 4, 1996: HAMAS and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) both claimed responsibility for a bombing outside of Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall that killed 20 persons and injured 75 others, including 2 U.S. citizens.

AID Worker Abduction, May 31, 1996: A gang of former Contra guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. employee of the Agency for International Development (AID) who was assisting with election preparations in rural northern Nicaragua. She was released unharmed the next day after members of the international commission overseeing the preparations intervened.

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.

Paris Subway Explosion, December 3, 1996: A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train as it arrived at the Port Royal station, killing two French nationals, a Moroccan, and a Canadian, and injuring 86 persons. Among those injured were one U.S. citizen and a Canadian. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected.

1997

Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

ELN Kidnapping, February 24, 1997: National Liberation Army (ELN) guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen employed by a Las Vegas gold corporation who was scouting a gold mining operation in Colombia. The ELN demanded a ransom of $2.5 million.

FARC Kidnapping, March 7, 1997: FARC guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. mining employee and his Colombian colleague who were searching for gold in Colombia. On November 16, the rebels released the two hostages after receiving a $50,000 ransom.

Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, September 4, 1997: Three suicide bombers of HAMAS detonated bombs in the Ben Yehuda shopping mall in Jerusalem, killing eight persons, including the bombers, and wounding nearly 200 others. A dual U.S./Israeli citizen was among the dead, and 7 U.S. citizens were wounded.

Murder of U.S. Businessmen in Pakistan, November 12, 1997: Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility.

1998

UN Observer Abductions, February 19, 1998: Armed supporters of late Georgian president Zviad Gamsakhurdia abducted four UN military observers from Sweden, Uruguay, and the Czech Republic.

Somali Hostage-takings, April 15, 1998: Somali militiamen abducted nine Red Cross and Red Crescent workers at an airstrip north of Mogadishu. The hostages included a U.S. citizen, a German, a Belgian, a French, a Norwegian, two Swiss, and one Somali. The gunmen were members of a sub-clan loyal to Ali Mahdi Mohammed, who controlled the northern section of the capital.

U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible.

1999

Ugandan Rebel Attack, February 14, 1999: A pipe bomb exploded inside a bar, killing five persons and injuring 35 others. One Ethiopian and four Ugandan nationals died in the blast, and one U.S. citizen working for USAID, two Swiss nationals, one Pakistani, one Ethiopian, and 27 Ugandans were injured. Ugandan authorities blamed the attack on the Allied Democratic Forces (ADF).

FARC Kidnappings, February 25, 1999: FARC kidnapped three U.S. citizens working for the Hawaii-based Pacific Cultural Conservancy International. On March 4, the bodies of the three victims were found in Venezuela.

ELN Hostage-taking, March 23, 1999: Armed guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen in Boyaca, Colombia. The National Liberation Army (ELN) claimed responsibility and demanded $400,000 ransom. On 20 July, ELN rebels released the hostage unharmed following a ransom payment of $48,000.

2000

Car bombing in Spain, January 27, 2000: Police officials reported unidentified individuals set fire to a Citroen car dealership in Iturreta, causing extensive damage to the building and destroying 12 vehicles. The attack bore the hallmark of the Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA).

Diplomatic Assassination in Greece, June 8, 2000: In Athens, Greece, two unidentified gunmen killed British Defense Attaché Stephen Saunders in an ambush. The Revolutionary Organization 17 November claimed responsibility.

ELN Kidnapping, June 27, 2000: In Bogota, Colombia, ELN militants kidnapped a 5-year-old U.S. citizen and his Colombian mother, demanding an undisclosed ransom.

Kidnappings in Kyrgyzstan, August 12, 2000: In the Kara-Su Valley, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan took four U.S. citizens hostage. The Americans escaped on August 12.

Church Bombing in Tajikistan, October 1, 2000: Unidentified militants detonated two bombs in a Christian church in Dushanbe, killing seven persons and injuring 70 others. The church was founded by a Korean-born U.S. citizen, and most of those killed and wounded were Korean. No one claimed responsibility.

Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected.

Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. Embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front was likely responsible.
This all occurred between 1993 and 2001. Not all of these are in the United States, but some did. So while they may be methodical, they seem to have gone dormant, at least as far as the US is concerned. They may not be scared, but something is keeping the wolves at bay.

BTW I had to severely edit that quote because of character limit.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Anikdote View Post
They may not be scared, but something is keeping the wolves at bay.
They're being kept at bay from attacking here because they have easy targets to attack in Iraq.

Maybe that's the secret to keeping them out of the US. Occupy Iraq permanently and provide them with Americans they can kill over there. It seems to be working thus far.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
Yes. Instead of having to come over here to kill more Americans, we've sent Americans over there for them to kill. They have no need to attack us here when they can attack us over there and kill even more Americans than they did the first time. From the terrorist's point of view, 9/11 Phase 2 is even more successful than 9/11 Phase 1.
Do you mean Iraq? Do You Mean Afghanistan? What do you mean? If I follow your logic, you are saying our guys "Over there" are bait or the Buffer between the Trans Atlantic journeys of terrorism. The reason we haven’t been attacked "over here" is because these random acts are nearly impossible to carry out unless their potential target is asleep at the wheel.

Who created that 911 Phase 2? Oh that’s right, well be greeted as liberators. Medals of freedom all around; I’m buying!
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