Political Forum
     

Go Back   Political Forum > General Political Chat > Political Opinions & Beliefs


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008, 04:02 PM
G_Haile12 G_Haile12 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 391
G_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura about
Credits: 1,336
Default Marxism Explained (labor theory of value)

<<<MOD EDIT: These words and ideas are the intellectual property of another person. Videos of his presentations can be found here: Youtube Transcripts can be found here: Wordpress Please cite your sources. Don't take credit for ideas that don't belong to you. Don't put the site in jeopardy through copyright infringement. Don't surrender your integrity. CITE YOUR SOURCES.>>>



Quote:
We will start this explanation of the labor theory of value with an analogy from outside the sphere of economics. This is because people like Fox have no idea what Marxism is, and seem to base themselves wholly of conservative stereotypes and general lies.


A teenage boy is arguing with his mother about borrowing the car. A shrink watches their interaction and he doesn’t really pay attention to the specifics of the argument. To the shrink it isn’t important if the boy did his chores, or whether the mother promised him he could borrow the car…. The shrink sees all these unconscious motivations at play: a struggle over control, the son wanting to leave the nest but not, maybe there’s a good ole oedipal complex or something. These motives are the motor and context of the entire interaction-even though they don’t enter into the surface substance of the interaction which are just words about cars and chores. The specific words of the conversation are important if we want to know about cars and chores. But if we want to know about their relationship, their egos, their behavior… then we have to ask deeper questions that penetrate beneath the surface froth of words.

Similarly, the substance of bourgeois theory, supply and demand, is important for understanding some things about the economy: price fluctuations, inflation, etc. But if we want to understand deeper issues about the economy we need other tools that are able to pierce through this surface substance to the underlying meanings.

That is what the labor theory of value is all about.
All societies coordinate human labor in order to produce things. The total social product is divided about society. The organization of this production and distribution is the subject of economics.

When societies began producing a surplus of this social product a new aspect of distribution and production entered the equation: who controls the surplus?

Under feudalism the social surplus was extracted from peasants by landlords.

In slavery the social surplus is extracted from slaves by slave owners.

In both of these examples the economic act in which the surplus is passed from worker to exploiter is easy to see. Under feudalism the peasants gathered up a portion of all the food they had made and physically took it over to the landlords house and gave it to him.
Under slavery a slave works all day harvesting cane or cotton or diamonds and then watches the slaver owner take away all of those goods at the end of the day without compensating them.

In both types of society it is clear to all involved that human labor is producing these goods and that it is the products of labor that are being appropriated by the dominant class.

Under capitalism the process of exchange makes it harder to see the passing of the surplus from exploited to exploiter. But it’s still there. Workers are still producing the entire social product and another class, this time the capitalist class, is taking the surplus from them, selling it back to them and getting rich off it.

But what we see is money. We work and we are paid money for it. The capitalist sells the commodities we made and he gets money for it. We don’t see the exploitation- but it’s still there, albeit in a different form. (Workers aren’t forced to work for a slave owner or pay a tax to a feudal landlord. But they are compelled by necessity to eek out a living in a capitalist society. Most of the time this means selling your labor to a capitalist.)

In this way. money- or the process of exchanging goods and services in a “free” market- obscures the underlying reality that what is really going on at a basic, societal level is that a dominant class is extracting the social surplus from a subordinate class.

This is basically what the labor theory of value is saying. When people make things in a capitalist society, it is the labor that goes into them that gives them their value. Though money obscures and distorts this underlying value, this collective human labor is still the basic driving force of our collective economic activity.

The concept that the labor that goes into a commodity is the underlying essence of its value has been around for awhile. It even predates Marx, though he really gives the theory new life. Economists going all the way back to Ben Franklin realized that this theory helped answer a perplexing question in economic theory: why do heterogeneous commodities exchange?

Explain: by heterogeneous, of course, I mean that commodities are really different from each other. They have different physical properties, different uses. Why is it that they can all be exchanged in the free market? What explains the ratios of their exchange? (why are some commodities worth more than others?)

The theory went on to postulate- all these commodities must be made up of a common substance, something that they all have to a greater or lesser degree, something that gives them value. This thing is their “embodied labor time”, that is, the amount of labor that went into creating them.

Thus a 2008 chevy corvette convertible with custom leather seats and a bose audio system is worth more than a dozen eggs. This is because it requires the combined labor of many people all working over a long period of time to make all the parts of a car and put them together. To get eggs you throw stale bread at chickens and. At todays price of 55 grand, it would take about 660,000 eggs to equal one 2008 chevy corvette convertible with custom leather seats and a bose audio system. That’s their exchange ratio. The labor theory of value helps us to explain their exchange ratio.
__________________
“The goal of an Obama Presidency is to make sure we have bottom-up economic growth instead of just the old, tired, worn-out trickle-down ideologies that we have been seeing for so many years.”
Barack Obama

Last edited by Metrophobe; 06-26-2008 at 07:20 AM. Reason: Addition of Citation
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Red Cross - Donate Today    Save the Rainforest
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008, 04:03 PM
G_Haile12 G_Haile12 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 391
G_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura about
Credits: 1,336
Default Part 2

<<<MOD EDIT: These words and ideas are the intellectual property of another person. Videos of his presentations can be found here: Youtube Transcripts can be found here: Wordpress Please cite your sources. Don't take credit for ideas that don't belong to you. Don't put the site in jeopardy through copyright infringement. Don't surrender your integrity. CITE YOUR SOURCES.>>>



Quote:
Transformation problem:
Now, I’ve already said that the act of exchange (by which I mean the act of buying and selling commodities in the market via money) obscures the underlying labor value of commodities. Let’s explore this point further…

I’ll start by referring back to my opening example of a mother and son having an argument. Even though there may be all of these underlying psychological motives behind their conversation, the words they are using and the topic of the argument still have relevance. Though the topic may not have long term relevance to their relationship, right there, in the moment, in the present that topic and those words are important to them. As we move between these different perspectives, we see two distinct layers of meaning. Both are important.

So to with money and value. Though the labor value of a commodity may be the underlying substance to an economic interaction, it is the way this value is expressed through a money price that really effects the economic decisions people make. When you go to a store to buy something you want to know how much money it costs, not how much labor went into it. But the act of buying something with money implies the existence of value, whether or not you are aware of it.

Specific money prices are determined by supply and demand. I’ll assume that that concept is simple enough that I don’t need to explain it here. Money prices fluctuate- clothes and entertainment commodities come in and out of style, supplies of food temporarily change due to droughts, etc. But underneath this day to day fluctuation lies a general equilibrium price- a price related to the amount of labor embodied in commodities.

Money prices are mathematical, quantifiable, observable things. We see dollar signs hanging off of price tags and they have a real effect on us. Not so with labor value: We don’t see the people who make those commodities. Even if we could see them, quantifying the amount of labor time in a commodity is next to impossible: we’d have to figure out not just how much work went into a specific commodity in each stage of its making (and some commodities go through a lot of stages, through many firms, contain parts from all over the world, etc,) but also the labor behind each tool and machine used in the making of the commodity. (and divide the labor value of the machines by the amount of commodities produced over the life of the machine, etc.) It’s virtually impossible. (we could, however, measure the total # of hours worked by society, which is a better measure of labor time anyway, since value is a social concept.)

Though there have been countless attempts to quantify this theory, labor value will never be as quantifiable as price is. This is because labor value only really find its expression in money. It would be impossible to have a capitalist economy where goods were traded according to exact measurements of labor time. Capitalist economies require flexibility, and they require liquidity. Money provides this. (I hope to have a video on money at some point.) But in providing this flexibility money also deviates from being an exact measurement of labor time. It is, at best, an approximation.

A quick note on money: Money fundamentally acts as a measure of value. It represents work people have done. When you work you are paid money. You are more or less frugal with this money depending on how much of it you have and how hard it would be to get more of it. (You are more or less frugal depending on how much work you have been paid for and saved up and how easy it would be to make more money working.) The commodities you buy all cost money because someone had to be paid to make them. If a commodity didn’t take any labor to make it would be free. (this is what I mean when I say that the act of exchange “implies” labor value.)

But commodities are constantly fluctuating in price as capitalists find cheaper ways to make commodities, better ways to exploit workers, etc. The supply of money is changing too- money itself is a commodity related to labor time. It has a supply and a demand. Money is also called upon to perform other social functions other than measure value: it lubricates exchange, it can become credit, etc. So money is needed to be much more flexible- to be sensitive to rapid economic changes. We say, though its fundamental role in society is a measure of value, its relationship to this value is a loose one as supply and demand force it to fluctuate above and below the equilibrium values of embodied labor time.

Simplification problem:

Here’s another important angle: We said that commodities appear heterogeneous until we see that they have a common substance: labor. But isn’t labor heterogeneous? People work at different speeds, with different skills, with more or less competency. How can these heterogeneous acts be a common substance?

This question makes important the concept of “socially necessary labor time”. Just as in a capitalist society the process of exchange and competition tends to bring prices to a general equilibrium (gas or milk or CD’s -these prices are basically the same amount everywhere) so to the process of exchange and competition create a social average of how much labor it takes to complete a task. Remember- value is a concept that only makes sense from a macro level. It doesn’t matter if you go into work drunk and work really slow and sloppy at making cars. That doesn’t destroy value. The labor value of a car corresponds to the socially necessary time that it takes to make it. In this way we say that exchange exerts a homogenizing influence on labor.

This homogenizing influence is very strong in society. Capitalist want work to be standardized and reliable so that workers can be as productive as possible. Capitalists are constantly seeking ways to mechanize work in order to make it unskilled and uniform. Perhaps you can think of many examples of this in your own life… The service industry and the industrial sector are almost entirely made up of this uniform, low-skilled work. This increases the potential supply of labor (because anyone could do the job) thus driving down wages.

But how strong is this homogenizing influence? We still have a lot of skilled labor which fetches a much higher price than unskilled labor. And we have union jobs which pay better than non-union jobs even though both groups of workers may do the same type of work. We could dismiss this as supply and demand casting its usual distorting influence over the law of value. And we would be justified to some degree. But we also might say that the need for skilled labor in society is indeed a countervailing influence against the homogenizing influence of capitalism on the labor process. We might even say that capitalism has a tendency to deskill/ homogenize most work, while making other work highly skilled. [get this right]

Again, the homogenization of labor time (or as the problem is usually referred to- the “simplification” of labor) is not a quantifiable phenomena. We can observe it qualitatively as a tendency under capitalism. But there really isn’t an objective way of measuring it.

Thus the labor theory of value has two “problems”: 1.value is the underlying context behind prices, yet its relationship to prices can’t be quantified. 2. value is made possible by the simplification/homogenization of labor, yet this simplification is not quantifiable.

These two “problems” have caused a ridiculous amount of debate among proponents and critics of the labor theory of value. After all, how do you prove that a theory is true if you can’t quantify it and test it? We claim that it is the underlying substance behind exchange yet it can’t be seen…. so how do we know it’s there? Is it just a matter of faith? Is the labor theory of value just a metaphysical concept?

Well… no. The labor theory of value is proven by asking the questions: “what does it help us explain?” The law of value helps us explain all sorts of things that bourgeois economic theory- with its narrow focus on supply and demand and personal utility- can’t. An analysis of economic issues using the labor theory of value starts to lead us in all sorts of directions not approached by any other theory. Pretty soon we find we have a much wider, systemic understanding of capitalism- and understanding that no other theory of exchange gives us.
<<<Mod Edit:This post had to be shortened due to the 10,000 character limit. Please go to the website at the top of the page to finish this article.>>>
__________________
“The goal of an Obama Presidency is to make sure we have bottom-up economic growth instead of just the old, tired, worn-out trickle-down ideologies that we have been seeing for so many years.”
Barack Obama

Last edited by Metrophobe; 06-26-2008 at 07:25 AM. Reason: Citation added, post shortened.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008, 07:17 PM
hairymarx hairymarx is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 859
hairymarx is a jewel in the roughhairymarx is a jewel in the roughhairymarx is a jewel in the roughhairymarx is a jewel in the rough
Credits: 6,947
Default G Haile12

Absolutely brilliant - really first class. To all you people out there who are interested in further reading, I suggest "The Revolutionary Ideas of Karl Marx" by professor Alex Callinicos. It is a great introduction to Marx's ideas and philosophy.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 03:08 AM
Ronin-Talgar Ronin-Talgar is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,015
australia
Ronin-Talgar is a glorious beacon of lightRonin-Talgar is a glorious beacon of lightRonin-Talgar is a glorious beacon of lightRonin-Talgar is a glorious beacon of lightRonin-Talgar is a glorious beacon of light
Credits: 7,593
Default

Good read aye.

Always wanted to know how the right wing explains what happened to the exploitative nature of the rich of the past in feudalism etc, and what happened to such exploitaion in their world view. I forsee much reading in my future. Quick question though, did Marx advocate violent revolution as a neccesity?
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 03:26 AM
G_Haile12 G_Haile12 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 391
G_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura about
Credits: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin-Talgar View Post
Quick question though, did Marx advocate violent revolution as a neccesity?
Not necessarily, he said in all human history no ruling class has ever given up power without bloodshed, so peaceful revolution is unlikely because the bourgeois will need go out without a fight.
__________________
“The goal of an Obama Presidency is to make sure we have bottom-up economic growth instead of just the old, tired, worn-out trickle-down ideologies that we have been seeing for so many years.”
Barack Obama
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 12:08 PM
Daybreaker's Avatar
Daybreaker Daybreaker is offline
Analyst
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,747
Daybreaker is a splendid one to beholdDaybreaker is a splendid one to beholdDaybreaker is a splendid one to beholdDaybreaker is a splendid one to beholdDaybreaker is a splendid one to beholdDaybreaker is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 9,029
Default Thank you!

Thank you for that. That was really cool.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 11:06 PM
TheChief's Avatar
TheChief TheChief is online now
Analyst
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia, Perth
Posts: 2,312
usa
TheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud ofTheChief has much to be proud of
Credits: 2,644
Default

Marxism is a system were everybody is poor... nuff said..
__________________
Left sucks! so visit our new group! Obama is a Joke!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 11:09 PM
G_Haile12 G_Haile12 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 391
G_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura about
Credits: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChief View Post
Marxism is a system were everybody is poor... nuff said..
Good to see you can counter my economic thesis here with excellent thought out rebuttals. Unfortunately the Right is almost exclusively stupid.
__________________
“The goal of an Obama Presidency is to make sure we have bottom-up economic growth instead of just the old, tired, worn-out trickle-down ideologies that we have been seeing for so many years.”
Barack Obama
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008, 11:43 PM
White Fox's Avatar
White Fox White Fox is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 札幌市
Posts: 6,322
japan no vest norway
White Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond repute
Credits: 32,401
Default

You never managed to point out a single place in my argument where my explicit interpretations of Marxist philosophy were wrong. I gave you extensive definitions of the terms and concepts I used and you could not refute any thing said in those definitions. If you wish to go back and find one, you are welcome to do so.

It is now 4 in the morning and it'll take me awhile to go through a complete breakdown of the labor theory of value so I'll do it tomorrow, but that being said, it is one of Marx's sounder positions as a whole.
__________________
"Seek truth from facts"

--Deng Xiaoping
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2008, 12:07 AM
Raharu Haruha's Avatar
Raharu Haruha Raharu Haruha is offline
Banned
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,276
Raharu Haruha is a splendid one to beholdRaharu Haruha is a splendid one to beholdRaharu Haruha is a splendid one to beholdRaharu Haruha is a splendid one to beholdRaharu Haruha is a splendid one to beholdRaharu Haruha is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 13,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G_Haile12 View Post
Good to see you can counter my economic thesis here with excellent thought out rebuttals. Unfortunately the Right is almost exclusively stupid.
Well at least we're not on the streets begging for change.

I'll probably read this later when I have time. It's finals week, and I'm really just on here taking a break from studying. I've got to warn you though, I don't have much patients for writers who try to lead their audience to believe the ideas they're reporting, and I have even less patients for those who do it blatantly.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Obama- (or Hillary-) Care Explained DiscerningBlog Political Blogs 0 04-12-2008 06:00 PM
The Bankruptcy of Marxism: Part 1,957,317 DiscerningBlog Political Blogs 0 02-24-2008 08:00 PM
How Marxism Fails Economically NumberUnknown Economics & Trade 1 12-18-2007 04:34 AM
Boston Big Dig Problems Explained Rebellion Current Events 0 09-07-2005 01:15 PM
Labor Legislation In Progress/New Labor Rules Effective Aug. Clara-Listensprechen Labor & Employment 3 08-27-2004 12:38 PM

Sponsored Links

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0
Template-Modifikationen durch TMS
vBCredits v1.3 ©2007 by Darkwaltz4
Advertisement System V2.1 By   Branden