Political Forum
     

Go Back   Political Forum > General Political Chat > Political Opinions & Beliefs


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2008, 12:03 AM
G_Haile12 G_Haile12 is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 391
G_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura aboutG_Haile12 has a spectacular aura about
Credits: 1,339
Default Marxism Explained (What the hell is money?)

<<<MOD EDIT: These words and ideas are the intellectual property of another person. Videos of his presentations can be found here: Youtube Transcripts can be found here: Wordpress Please cite your sources. Don't take credit for ideas that don't belong to you. Don't put the site in jeopardy through copyright infringement. Don't surrender your integrity. CITE YOUR SOURCES.>>>

Quote:
AND NOW, this is my next installment in 'Marxism Explained' series, a series of articles by me aimed by making Marxist economic theory (and in general a understanding of capitalism) more understandable to the ordinary person.

We will start our investigation of money by looking at some of the basic problems of barter. We’ll see how money solves these problems but, in doing so, creates some problems of its own. As money evolves from, shells and salt to gold, to paper money, to bank notes and credit instruments, we will see a common theme reappearing over and over, taking different forms as money takes different forms: that money is always trying to resolve the contradiction between being a measure of value and a medium of circulation.

To begin with barter:

The basic problem of barter is how to measure the values at which commodities exchange. We call this exchange value. Without some notion of exchange value we have no idea how many shoes to trade for how many potatoes, how many eggs for swords….

All commodities have two different aspects that relate to their exchange value: before they can be used they have to be made. Thus, all commodities have a use value and a labor value.

Use value tells us how much demand there is for something, and thus lets workers know how much of a commodity to produce. But it still doesn’t tell us how much of one commodity exchanges for another.

…Which is why we need a labor theory of value which states that commodities exchange for one another based around the amount of labor that went into making them. In early barter economies, when considering a trade the logic is always: “How long would it take me to make that myself?” Similarly, when I go into a store to buy something with my money, that money represents work I was paid for. When I exchange my labor with the labor of the person who made the commodity I am valuing my labor in relation to theirs.

And this is what money allows us to do that barter can’t: measure the amount of value in commodities so that we can exchange them.

All sorts of commodities have been used as money. No matter what commodity is chosen by society as money, that commodity becomes a universal equivalent, meaning the values of all commodities are expressed relative to the money commodity.

So money solves the problem of exchange by internalizing the duality of use value and labor value. Money then does two different, yet connected things:

1. it measures value. (labor value)
2. it allows commodities to circulate. (its use)

Smarty-pants economists say money is a “measure of value” and a “medium of circulation”. It measures value because it is a commodity itself, made by human labor, and thus has a labor value. [In this day and age, when our paper money is no longer backed by the gold commodity we forget that for the vast majority of human history money has been a tangible commodity. For now, let's put aside the thorny question of non-convertible paper money, and just deal with money as a commodity.] Because money represents a clear labor value it is safe to use as a measure of value. In contrast, if we used something without a labor value- maple leaves, or dirt, or smiles, we would have no guarantee that this money would be valued by anyone else. If you sell a pair of shoes for a handful of dirt, you are screwed because nobody else wants your handful of dirt because they could just go get their own handful of dirt. Similarly, if the value of the paper dollar was to fall tomorrow, we’d all be screwed because paper has very little value. So what makes a money strong is its ability to represent the value of commodities in the economy, and this is usually a result of money being a commodity with a high value itself.

But money isn’t just used to measure value, its used to circulate commodities (it’s second property as a medium of circulation.) This means that it takes on an exchange value different from its labor value.[camera close up] Money expresses the value of all commodities as they relate to each other. Thus it becomes worth “what it will buy” instead of “what it took to make it.” We call this its reflex value, because its a reflection of the value of all commodities in relation to each other.

The reflex value is formed by the relation of the supply of money to its demand. If there is less of the money commodity than is needed to circulate goods in the economy then the price of the money commodity goes up (deflation). If the supply of the money commodity rises above the amount needed to circulate commodities then the price of the money commodity goes down (inflation).

Let’s take a look at a modern day example of a money commodity: the use of cigarettes as money in prisons. Here’s a 2006 Onion article:
<<<Mod Edit: This post had to be shortened to fit under the 10,000 character rule. This link takes you straight to the text.
__________________
“The goal of an Obama Presidency is to make sure we have bottom-up economic growth instead of just the old, tired, worn-out trickle-down ideologies that we have been seeing for so many years.”
Barack Obama

Last edited by Metrophobe; 06-26-2008 at 07:33 AM. Reason: Addition of citation, which pushed the post over 10,000 characters, which led to its abridgement and subsequent linking.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Red Cross - Donate Today    Save the Rainforest
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2008, 12:32 AM
OOOOOOO OOOOOOO is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 305
OOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of light
Credits: 2,171
Default

WHO CARES?

ANSWER: ONLY THE FAR-LEFT FRINGE WHO MADE UP THEIR MINDS ON WHO THEY WILL VOTE FOR ALREADY.

PLEASE KEEP PEDDLING THIS DISCREDITED IDEOLOGY
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2008, 03:14 AM
Ronin-Talgar Ronin-Talgar is online now
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,556
australia
Ronin-Talgar is a splendid one to beholdRonin-Talgar is a splendid one to beholdRonin-Talgar is a splendid one to beholdRonin-Talgar is a splendid one to beholdRonin-Talgar is a splendid one to beholdRonin-Talgar is a splendid one to beholdRonin-Talgar is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 10,782
Default

The Hanging Gardens and a rude tent. Thanks G_Haile12, always interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2008, 01:39 PM
hairymarx hairymarx is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 951
hairymarx is just really nicehairymarx is just really nicehairymarx is just really nicehairymarx is just really nicehairymarx is just really nice
Credits: 7,484
Default

All things under capitalism have become reduced to exchange values where the logic of the market prevails.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2008, 02:07 PM
White Fox's Avatar
White Fox White Fox is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 催眠療法
Posts: 8,074
austria us georgia
White Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond repute
Credits: 44,839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G_Haile12 View Post
1. it measures value. (labor value)
2. it allows commodities to circulate. (its use)
You forgot the use of money as a store of value, a function quite important to the agricultural industry as their products cannot be stored for long periods of time without losing their value. That function is more than just a measure of value.
__________________
.
"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.

--Murray Rothbard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny. View Post
A liberal is just a libertarian who hasn't studied economics.

Join the Libertarians!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2008, 02:22 PM
CptnRodent's Avatar
CptnRodent CptnRodent is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Missoula, MT
Posts: 1,283
usa us montana
CptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud of
Credits: 7,125
Send a message via AIM to CptnRodent Send a message via MSN to CptnRodent
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Fox View Post
You forgot the use of money as a store of value, a function quite important to the agricultural industry as their products cannot be stored for long periods of time without losing their value. That function is more than just a measure of value.
I believe the OP eventually hits that point...

Quote:
So these additional aspects of money- that it can be a “store of value” and a “means of payment”- both must be seen as ways of resolving the contradictions between money as a measure of value a medium of circulation.
Anyway, great thread and post. Very informative. I doubt OOOOOO even bothered to read any of it; while I'm no proponent of Marxism, this is a very interesting read.
__________________
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. – H.L. Mencken

I refuse to trade humanity for patriotism.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2008, 02:27 PM
White Fox's Avatar
White Fox White Fox is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 催眠療法
Posts: 8,074
austria us georgia
White Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond reputeWhite Fox has a reputation beyond repute
Credits: 44,839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptnRodent View Post
I believe the OP eventually hits that point...

Anyway, great thread and post. Very informative. I doubt OOOOOO even bothered to read any of it; while I'm no proponent of Marxism, this is a very interesting read.
Oh, I just saw it missing from that particular list.

Marx's economic theories were well ahead of their time at explaining how capitalism worked, and many of them are still used today. Marx does deserve credit for this. Unfortunately, the "ism" associated with Marx has very few positive components or affects on the societies that have used it or attempted to use it in the past
__________________
.
"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.

--Murray Rothbard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny. View Post
A liberal is just a libertarian who hasn't studied economics.

Join the Libertarians!

Last edited by White Fox; 06-24-2008 at 02:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2008, 02:31 PM
CptnRodent's Avatar
CptnRodent CptnRodent is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Missoula, MT
Posts: 1,283
usa us montana
CptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud ofCptnRodent has much to be proud of
Credits: 7,125
Send a message via AIM to CptnRodent Send a message via MSN to CptnRodent
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Fox View Post
Oh, I just saw it missing from that particular list.

Marx's economic theories were well ahead of their time at explaining how capitalism worked, and many of them are still used today. Marx does deserve credit for this. Unfortunately, the "ism" associated with Marx has very few positive components or affects on the societies that have used it or attempted to use it in the past
Marxism has become synonymous with socialism, communism, and liberalism to many people; it has become a buzz word to be thrown about in political debate to discredit the other side. As a result, the understanding of these concepts has become very diluted.
__________________
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. – H.L. Mencken

I refuse to trade humanity for patriotism.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2008, 03:58 PM
OOOOOOO OOOOOOO is offline
Correspondent
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 305
OOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of lightOOOOOOO is a glorious beacon of light
Credits: 2,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptnRodent View Post
I believe the OP eventually hits that point...

Anyway, great thread and post. Very informative. I doubt OOOOOO even bothered to read any of it; while I'm no proponent of Marxism, this is a very interesting read.
Oh, I read it, just thought it was time the OP had one of HIS pompous and arrogant threads "answered".

Quote:
AND NOW, this is my next installment in 'Marxism Explained' series, a series of articles by me aimed by making Marxist economic theory (and in general a understanding of capitalism) more understandable to the ordinary person.
To the "ordinary person". This coming from somebody who doesn't even realize "The Onion" is a satrical site.

Let me save you some trouble:

http://kapitalism101.wordpress.com/


Using the internet to post bad marxist propoganda bit by bit to the "masses". Yeah, BRILLIANT!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2008, 08:29 PM
GovernmentCheese GovernmentCheese is offline
Analyst
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 2,219
usa us north carolina
GovernmentCheese is a jewel in the roughGovernmentCheese is a jewel in the roughGovernmentCheese is a jewel in the roughGovernmentCheese is a jewel in the rough
Credits: 6,877
Default

How are the Marxits supposed to make deals with the American Indian tribes. Heck even they have a form of free trade called barter. I mean they hang out together.
__________________
And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Marxism Explained (labor theory of value) G_Haile12 Political Opinions & Beliefs 20 06-26-2008 08:44 AM
Marxism Explained (where does profit come from?) G_Haile12 Political Opinions & Beliefs 32 06-20-2008 10:55 AM
The Bankruptcy of Marxism: Part 1,957,317 DiscerningBlog Political Blogs 0 02-24-2008 09:00 PM
How Marxism Fails Economically NumberUnknown Economics & Trade 1 12-18-2007 05:34 AM
Taxes. What the hell my money spent for? Aston United States 1 12-12-2006 01:32 PM

Sponsored Links

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0
Template-Modifikationen durch TMS
vBCredits v1.3 ©2007 by Darkwaltz4
Advertisement System V2.1 By   Branden