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Old 07-02-2008, 07:06 PM
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Default The Founding Fathers and the Original U.S. Foreign Policy

America's Founders were opposed to intervention and pre-emptive wars. They would not have supported the Neoconservative Republicans in the current administration. In their view of foreign policy, America would have "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling alliances with none." Hear them in their own words:

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." - James Madison

"War has been avoided from a due sense of the miseries, and the demoralization it produces, and of the superior blessings of a state of peace and friendship with all mankind." - Thomas Jefferson

"Never was so much false arithmetic employed on any subject, as that which has been employed to persuade nations that it is their interest to go to war." - Thomas Jefferson

"There was never a good war or a bad peace." - Benjamin Franklin

"Preparation for war is a constant stimulus to suspicion and ill will." - James Monroe

"The fiery and destructive passions of war reign in the human breast with much more powerful sway than the mild and beneficent sentiments of peace." - Alexander Hamilton

"My first wish is to see this plague of mankind, war, banished from the earth." - George Washington

"Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debt and taxes and armies are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people...
[There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and....degeneracy of manners and morals....No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." -- James Madison

"War is the common harvest of all those who participate in the division and expenditure of public money, in all countries. It is the art of conquering at home: the object of it is an increase of revenue: and as revenue cannot be increased without taxes, a pretence must be made for expenditures. In reviewing the history of the English Government, its wars and its taxes, a bystander, not blinded by prejudice, nor warped by interest, would declare, that taxes were not raised to carry on wars, but that wars were raised to carry on taxes." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, Part 1

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world... As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent Patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practise the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the Public Councils… Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations, are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand; neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences...constantly keeping in view, that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that, by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion, which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard."

-George Washington’s Farewell Address, September 17, 1796

"The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would become entangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own soul." -President John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams

The vast majority of Founding Fathers, and a majority of the most influential Founding Fathers, supported the militia as the primary means of national defense. This majority allowed for the creation of a standing army for emergency situations, but did not intend for it to replace the militia as the primary means of defense. They believed the United States should remain neutral in foreign wars and should use the militia and army for defensive purposes only. They would not support current U.S. foreign policy.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:07 PM
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The Founding Fathers on the Constitution's War Power

Alexander Hamilton: "The President is to be commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States. . . . It would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first General and Admiral of the Confederacy; while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war and the raising and regulating of fleets and armies, -- all of which by the Constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature." (The Federalist, 69, 1788.)

". . . .'The Congress shall have the power to declare war'; the plain meaning of which is, that it is the peculiar and exclusive duty of Congress, when the nation is at peace, to change that state into a state of war. . . ." (C. 1801.)

* * *

Thomas Jefferson: "We have already given in example one effectual check to the dog of war by transferring the power of letting him loose from the Executive to the Legislative body. . . ." (Letter to Madison, 1789.)

"Considering that Congress alone is constitutionally invested with the power of changing our condition from peace to war, I have thought it my duty to await their authority for using force in any degree which could be avoided." (Message to Congress, 1805.)

* * *
James Madison: ". . . The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the legislature . . . the executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question, whether there is or is not cause for declaring war." (1793.)

"The constitution supposes, what the History of all Governments demonstrates, that the Executive is the branch of power most interested in war, and most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care vested the question of war to the Legislature." (Letter to Jefferson, c. 1798.)

* * *

William Paterson framer and Supreme Court justice): ". . . It is the exclusive province of congress to change a state of peace into a state of war." (United States v. Smith, 1806.)

* * *
George Washington: "The constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject and authorized such a measure." (1793.)

* * * * *

James Wilson: (framer and ratifier): "This system will not hurry us into war; it is calculated to guard against it. It will not be in the power of a single man, or a single body of men, to involve us in such distress; for the important power of declaring war is vested in the legislature at large. . . ." (To the Pennsylvania ratifying convention, 1787.)

The Founding Fathers on the Constitution's War Power
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:07 PM
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"Now Stephen Halbrook, an attorney and well-known Second Amendment expert (he's the author of 1984's That Every Man Be Armed), has taken a much-needed look at the Swiss wartime record in a new book titled "Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II." The book not only provides a starting point for all future discussions of Switzerland's military role in the war, but also makes an interesting contribution to the literature on both federalism and gun rights; according to Halbrook, Switzerland's traditions of extreme decentralization and of a well-armed populace played a key role in preserving its freedom in an hour of peril.

As Halbrook reminds us, the American Founders often cited Switzerland as an example of the kind of nation they hoped to build on these shores. They admired its survival for centuries as a democracy amid tyrannies of every kind, following its birth in 1291 as the result of a peasant revolt in the remote fastnesses of the Alps."

Rest of Article Here

"America’s Founding Fathers recognized that standing armies were dangerous to liberty because such armies oppressed the population domestically and engaged in wars of imperialist aggression. That is why the United States originally followed the Swiss model of republicanism, a militia army, and neutrality. America’s founders wished to avoid "entangling alliances" in Europe, and the US entered World Wars I and II reluctantly.

A militia army includes virtually all able-bodied males under arms in a country, and thus challenges any invader with unending guerilla warfare. A standing army consists of professional soldiers forming a small proportion of a country’s population. Numerous standing armies in Europe collapsed before the onslaught of Hitler’s blitzkrieg – the governmental elites surrendered and ordered the soldiers to lay down their arms. An attack on Switzerland would have encountered no elite to surrender, and instead armed resistance at every turn.

The organization of the Swiss military as a militia meant that, while it could protect its country, it could not have invaded another country. This was the experience since medieval times. Armed Swiss commoners defeated the mightiest armies of invading knights at numerous battles – they left Charles the Bold in a ditch with his head crushed by a halberd at Nancy in 1477 – but were themselves defeated when they ventured into foreign lands, such as at Marignano in 1515.

The above is the key to Swiss neutrality. Militia armies are good at defending their own countries, but are no good at attacking other countries, and thus avoid foreign wars. Both militia defense and neutrality thus promote the ideals of peace.

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Proof that the Founders did indeed want a national militia composed of the people and not standing armies:

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington

"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important, but especially so at a moment when rights the most essential to our welfare have been violated." --Thomas Jefferson to -----, 1803. ME 10:365

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country" - James Madison, Annals of Congress

"What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty . . . Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms. To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." - Senator Richard Henry Lee

"Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace." - James Madison

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation . . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." - James Madison

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun." - Patrick Henry

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:08 PM
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"The fundamental constitutional institution for "homeland security" is not even the Army or Navy. America's Founding Fathers profoundly distrusted standing armed forces under the control of any government as potential enemies of liberty, not least of all because of their own experiences with the British Army's attempts to suppress freedom in the Colonies and independent States. So, in the Constitution, the Founders refused to adopt any preexisting army or navy, or to create new ones, as permanent establishments for the United States.

True, the Constitution delegates to Congress the powers "[t]o raise and support Armies" and "[t]o provide and maintain a Navy". Article I, Section 8, Clauses 12 and 13. And with such powers comes a duty to exercise them, when necessary and proper. Compare United States v. Marigold, 50 U.S. (9 Howard) 560, 567 (1850), with Article I, Section 8, Clause 18. Otherwise, though, Congress need never "raise and support", and need not continuously "provide and maintain", an army or a navy. Furthermore, the Constitution requires that, even when Congress does "raise" an army, "no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years". Article I, Section 8, Clause 12. This enables the House of Representatives--the House of Congress electorally closest to the people and (in political theory, at least) most chary of their lives, liberties, and property--to prevent an army from continuing in existence when it serves no purpose that justifies its expense, or when it threatens Americans' freedoms.

In addition, the Constitution provides that "[n]o State shall, without the Consent of Congress, * * * keep Troops, or Ships of War, in time of Peace". Article I, Section 10, Clause 3. So, nowhere in the federal system does the supreme law of the land treat an army or navy as an inevitable, indispensable, permanent, or perpetual institution.

Where, then, should Americans look for constitutional "homeland security"? The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides the first giant steps towards the answer:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

By definition, "the security of a free State" is "homeland security" (the "homeland" being, not simply a geographical area, but a special political conception rooted in freedom). The Amendment describes "[a] well regulated Militia" as "necessary" (not simply useful) for such "security". And the Amendment singles out "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" as so important to the existence of such a "Militia" that "the right * * * shall not be infringed". Therefore, the fundamental constitutional institution of "homeland security" must be "[a] well regulated Militia" based upon "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms".

Perhaps more importantly, the body of the Constitution itself is not silent on this matter, either. To be sure, the Constitution does not create any "well regulated Militia". It delegates no power to Congress to "raise and support" (as with an army), to "provide and maintain" (as with a navy), or in any other words to fashion from whole cloth any "well regulated Militia". And it does not even define what constitutes such a Militia. That is because it did not have to: In the late 1700s, every adult American knew that "well regulated Militia" had existed in the Colonies and independent States from the mid-1600s, and were established in every State of the Union even as the Constitution was being drafted and ratified. For that reason, the Constitution simply acknowledged "the Militia of the several States" as already in existence, adopted and incorporated them according to the historical legal principles by which they had long and even then operated, and thereby perpetuated them in that form. See Article I, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16; and Article II, Section 2, Clause 1.

Rest of Article Here
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:37 PM
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Well quoting the founding fathers is one thing. Looking at what they actually did is another. I prefer to see what they actually did when they came into power rather than ponder on their idealistic quotes.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:41 PM
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"Where, then, should Americans look for constitutional "homeland security"? The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides the first giant steps towards the answer:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


The problem with that is that we have been in a state of "war" since the 40's. First there was WWII, then the cold war, now the "war" on terror. 9-11 was an act of war, so now here we are.

While I disagree with our "preemptive" strike on Iraq, I do believe that we have stepped in it now and its our responsibility to stay there until the end.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth-Bringer View Post
America's Founders were opposed to intervention and pre-emptive wars.
"From the Shores of Tripoli"

You may recognize that as being a part of the song of the American Marine Corps. It speaks to a period where the US Framers sent US troops into the Middle East to resolve problems with Radical Muslims.

So, the very idea that the US founders would not support the war on terror is ludicrous. The US attacked a foreign nation using the full extent of its means to project power in 1804, over nothing more than that nation was suspected of harboring those which were hijacking US merchant ships. In case you're not familiar with the period, Thomas Jefferson was the President and he was most decidely a founding member of the United States.

If the US were still being governed by the Framers of the US, you would be in prison somewhere for having advanced an instrument which supports the enemy in a time of war. The Framers sent tens of thousands of Torries out of the United States. People who owned property, businesses, had been in the Colonies for generations, but who supported the Crown were sent into exile, after the American revolution. Many were killed in their homes and businesses during the war.

The US framers were quick to preach against foreign entanglements but they were quick to gobble foreign loans, which began decades before the ratification of the US Constitution, and with those loans came those foreign entanglements which the First American President so famously denounced.

But Americans have always strongly defended their interests and decisively so.


Had the US framers been governing the US on 9-11, it is very likely that Baghdad and Kabul would have been turned to smoking glass by mid-day of 9-12 with the US Carrier Fleet sitting off shore in the Persion Gulf, strongly suggesting Tehran sign the documents delivered the same morning, which contained photos of Baghdad and Kabul and language for them to sign which promised the world that its Islamic Government would be holding free elections by the end of the month. And a note that if that signed document wasn't at the US Embassy in Qatar by 16:00 local time, that Tehran was going up in flames and that should any member of the Iranian government escape the Nuke, they would be hunted down and shot on sight.

The US framers were fierce men, they were not fools and they didn't give a hoot about the whimsy of public opinion. The War on terror would have been over 7 years ago with millions dead aas a result of the Islamic failure to respect the American's rights.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterproctor View Post
Well quoting the founding fathers is one thing. Looking at what they actually did is another. I prefer to see what they actually did when they came into power rather than ponder on their idealistic quotes.
The War of 1812 comes immediately to mind.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Kazikli Bey View Post
The War of 1812 comes immediately to mind.
I was actually thinking Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion and the Barbary Wars... but yes the war of 1812 is very much along that train of thought
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:07 PM
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"Had the US framers been governing the US on 9-11, it is very likely that Baghdad and Kabul would have been turned to smoking glass by mid-day of 9-12 with the US Carrier Fleet sitting off shore in the Persion Gulf, strongly suggesting Tehran sign the documents delivered the same morning, which contained photos of Baghdad and Kabul and language for them to sign which promised the world that its Islamic Government would be holding free elections by the end of the month. And a note that if that signed document wasn't at the US Embassy in Qatar by 16:00 local time, that Tehran was going up in flames and that should any member of the Iranian government escape the Nuke, they would be hunted down and shot on sight."

I agree, just replace Baghdad with Medina (radical Islamists could care less about their regular cities) and tell them that Meca was next if they didn't comply.

Last edited by galaxguy; 07-02-2008 at 08:07 PM.
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