For those who might be confused by the term Public Debt, here is a Wiki definition; yes, I know it messes with logic when public debt is the same as government debt:

"The United States total public debt, commonly called the national debt, or U.S. government debt, is the amount of money owed by the United States federal government to creditors (bankers) who hold U.S. debt instruments. Debt held by the public is all federal debt held by states, corporations, individuals, and foreign governments, but does not include intragovernmental debt obligations or debt held for Social Security. Types of securities held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Notes, Bonds, TIPS, United States Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities."

Exactly!! The "we" being particularly our Government

I am less in agreement with you on this one, so lets look at history to see what we can conclude about the debt rockets.

The graph below (from an anonymous Wikipedia contributor) shows Government debt as a % of Gross Domestic Product (the total value of final goods and services produced in a year). You will note a spike in the late-1860s, just after the Civil War; another in about 1920, just after WW 1; a third in 1946, just after WW 2. It seems clear - wars cause the iincrease in debt in their aftermath.

Except that after WW 2 the rule doesn't seem to apply. There might be a spike after the Korean war from 1950-1953 although it is all but hidden in the massive post-WW 2 spike. However, clearly there was no spike after the Vietnam war (1964-1973). And then there is the huge broad spike starting in the early 1980s, a period in which the US has been invading other countries on a regular basis, and up to 1990, the so-called 'Cold War'.

It seems that I Like Texas was correct:
It really does seem that US debt is somehow linked to wars or their aftermath, which boils down to military spending being the main culprit; the main ‘spike’ in discretionary spending. Therefore, to put a bit of spin on it, Japan and Chine by being willing to extend us borrowing facilities, are financing our war machine. Without them, we wouldn’t be able to afford it.

So, who is more likely to continue demanding financing for wars, invasions, and military expenditure in general – McCain or Obama? Once you answer that question, you will know who is more likely to cause our government debt to keep on growing at the current alarming rate.

If you are dissatisfied with the fact that each US tax payer owes someone else US$ 79 000, and you want to see this (partially) addressed, then add debt to your list of election criteria.

Yup, just like the selfish Yuppie - someone else can fix my mess.

Attached Images

US debt2.jpg (33.8 KB, 2 views)

We sell off all non-essential federal holdings to pay down the remainder of the debt. After that is done, we repeal the income tax, snd the government returns to its Constitutional duty of printing and coining its own money.

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

No, it's not at all. You ignoring the core issues. There is one very simple argument against the Fed:

There's absolutely no need for the government to abdicate its right to coin and print money to a private corporation. That's all that needs to be said. And yes, the Federal Reserve is a private entity owned by rich, elitist banking families. And while they do return some of their profit to the Treasury every year (to make them appear altruistic in the public eye), they still profit over $10 billion just from the printing alone.

"The Federal Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities..." -- Lewis vs. United States 9th Circuit 1992

"The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies. ...but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." -- Lewis vs. United States, 680 F. 2d 1239 9th Circuit 1982

"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers" -- Congressional Record 12595-12603 -- Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932

"These 12 corporations together cover the whole country and monopolize and use for private gain every dollar of the public currency..." -- Mr. Crozier of Cincinnati, before Senate Banking and Currency Committee - 1913

As for currency itself, the root argument is of course about freedom. The government passes legal tender laws and then forces you, at gunpoint if necessary, to accept worthless paper as money. It eliminates freedom in the market place.

If the legal tender laws were repealed tomorrow, nobody with half a brain would use Federal Reserve Notes because they have no intrinsic value. They're absolutely worthless, except for the government's ability to force you to use them and accept them as money.

"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin... Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with a flick of the pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again... Take this great power away from them and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in... But, if you want to be the slaves of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit."

- Sir Josiah Stamp, Governor of the Bank of England in the 1920s and the second richest man in Britain in the 1920's, speaking at the University of Texas in 1927.

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

Lol guess I was wrong. I was confused because that graph looked different than the ones I've seen. I still think this is different some how, I'm not not sure what it is.

Other arguments I can come up with are, why is the Public debt not increasing past where Clinton took it, but the gross debt is increasing wildly? What's the difference?

Also, Bush doesn't control the debt either way, congress down. Shouldn't we look to congress (who is democratic) to lead us out of this? Why haven't they?

That's a borderline attack...

People who agree with you are complete idiots and a disgrace to the human race.

Bush is making billion dollar decisions without consulting the "public".

We are not a true democracy, thus our government's decisions are not necessarily the decisions of the public.

Therefore, the debt fall son the government.



Also, Clinton balanced the budget and started paying off debt. Bush has almost doubled the national debt in just 7 years....

__________________
"For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth"
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK

Knight Errant of the Simian Order
Truth - Justice - Comedy

You know I've already been proven wrong and accepted it. Something that they did different from you is they posted a reference which I looked up and it clearly stated what they were saying. You on the other hand simply want to blame Bush for all of your troubles. *mod edit*.

I posted my response without reading the rest of the thread. You admit I'm right and you are wrong...And I don't need to post links for things that are common knowledge to anyone with a 5th grade education. Then you regurgitate my insult back at me?

And you call me an idiot?...lol

__________________
"For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth"
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK

Knight Errant of the Simian Order
Truth - Justice - Comedy

First lets get rid of Social Security for anyone under the age of 45. Let them start saving for their own retirement. Put a cap on benefits for all the rest of the people.

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Liberals believe it is okay to kill babies, but not terrorists.

democrats believe it is okay to taser a 10 year old if this stance will get their guy elected.

I think we'd be be better of just killing off the retards and physically handicapped. They go on social security from the day they are born.

That's an entire lifetime of unearned benefits just to keep them alive. But, paying someone from the time they are 65 is cheap....

I say there are better ways to streamline....

__________________
"For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth"
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK

Knight Errant of the Simian Order
Truth - Justice - Comedy