What is a Neocon? Opinions wanted. - Page 3

i.beletesri · #21 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABoyNamedSue

I'd say folks like Hannity and Limbaugh are definitely neocons. However, that should be taken with a grain of salt, since they're both in the entertainment business.

As far as the government, it's hard to say. On the surface, our entire government seems to be made up of "neocons" and "neo-socialists," but that's just a sign of how badly government is fractured. Pull them away from that theatre, and I'd think their tune would change.

I see Hannity and Limbaugh as More Straight-down-the-line [old] Conservatives.
Conservative on all issues including Social ones.
I can't see any 'neo' about their conservatism.

I see neocons as Foreign Policy Conservative (Hawkish), but I'm not even sure what the Domestic agenda of a neocon is.

I'm winging it a bit here- as (another point), Neocon may be more a matter of Usage than defintion.

And the Usage does have Jewish overtones - for many/most it's main meaning is in fact "Jewish Chicken Hawk" and or "Fighting a war for Israel" ... "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (21st C edition)

and as used with disdain by especially Paleo-conservatives like Buchanan -- and stretching to the other side- Liberals, Leftists, and Islamists. IOW, the traditional disparate but sympatico anti-semites.

ABoyNamedSue · #22 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 09:06 AM

Good point. I guess, since I'm not an anti-semite, I didn't make the connection.

Sadistic-Savior · #23 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

I can't see any 'neo' about their conservatism.

And they tend to agree.

But Pat Buchanan is right in his analysis in one way...Neocons are certainly aggressive on foreign policy in a way Paleocons never were. Paleocons are pragmatists. Neocons are idealists.

By that definition, Limbaugh is indeed a neocon. He supports an aggressive interventionalist foreign policy that is anathema to "real" conservatives.

BuckNaked · #24 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 09:40 AM

Just plain everyday fascist/nationalists without the American to make it sound as if it is relevant will do for an appropriate definition.

Quote:

Fascism is a term used to describe authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.
Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism (blind, unwavering as it may be, without question, which isn’t patriotic at all!), nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, economic planning (including corporatism and autarky), populism, collectivism, autocracy and anti-liberalism (i.e., opposition to political and economic liberalism).

Mostly as I have tried to explain to you before it is a new (appropriate) advancement of political swindlers, with the only ideology being a desire to obtain personal financial gain by using the system.

Also appropriately implied by the neo-con label, these con artists, only imply that the con is short for conservatism.

Most of the followers do not even realize what it is they are following and are so misguided in their belief that they have commonality with the leaders of this movement, they are willing victims to it’s underlying (lying being emphasized here) treachery.

Much the way that a revival preacher is conniving to profit from the gullibility of the religious followers, as an eager flock prepared for the inevitable slaughter. The neo-con artist plays the part for all they can get out of it. The victims, those who pay the price of admission, feel a deep connection with the (side show) barker who presents a perceived commonality with the people they take the most advantage of. The followers/believers are the strength of the movement, and are not necessarily con-artists themselves, even though they represent the base, they are unmistakably the marks or a successful con!

Rush, Chaney, daddy Bush, most of the executive administration, as well as many of the elected republicans, are perfect examples of the con artists. Bush W. is merely a pawn!

i.beletesri · #25 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior

And they tend to agree.

But Pat Buchanan is right in his analysis in one way...Neocons are certainly aggressive on foreign policy in a way Paleocons never were. Paleocons are pragmatists. Neocons are idealists.

By that definition, Limbaugh is indeed a neocon. He supports an aggressive interventionalist foreign policy that is anathema to "real" conservatives.

Traditional Conservatives solidly supported the Iraq war and about the same Foreign Policy as neocons.
(again we're talking usage as much as defintion I think). A Jewish official with the same politics as a non-Jewish one is probably more likely to get hit with 'neocon'.

Paleos are Isolationist and that hasn't changed.
Many Paleos (ie Buchanan), are also the remant of the formerly larger Right Wing/John Birch OLD anti-semite part of the party.. now faded.
Anti-semitism in America, in decades past, was mostly a Right Wing thing.
The New anti-semitism is mainly from the Left and they also use the term in question liberally (pun intended).

JavaBlack · #26 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABoyNamedSue

Good point. I guess, since I'm not an anti-semite, I didn't make the connection.

The connection has more to do with when the term originally came into practice.
The original neo-cons were liberal zionists who broke from the Democrats because they wanted hardline foreign policy.
The ideology has mutated since then.

JavaBlack · #27 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior

But Pat Buchanan is right in his analysis in one way...Neocons are certainly aggressive on foreign policy in a way Paleocons never were. Paleocons are pragmatists. Neocons are idealists.

That's because conservatism was... conservative. Intervening with other nations to expand national power, while not seen as liberal these days (but was in Wilson's day), was not seen as a very conservative thing to do.

Whaler17 · #28 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by static_engineer

From Wikipedia link here

The term neoconservative was originally used as a criticism against liberals who had "moved to the right". Michael Harrington, a democratic socialist, coined the usage of neoconservative in a 1973 Dissent magazine article concerning welfare policy. According to E. J. Dionne, the nascent neoconservatives were driven by "the notion that liberalism" had failed and "no longer knew what it was talking about."

"Leave the cult, we will hunt you down and make your life Hell" mentality of liberals!

Whaler17 · #29 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABoyNamedSue

I'd say folks like Hannity and Limbaugh are definitely neocons. However, that should be taken with a grain of salt, since they're both in the entertainment business.

As far as the government, it's hard to say. On the surface, our entire government seems to be made up of "neocons" and "neo-socialists," but that's just a sign of how badly government is fractured. Pull them away from that theatre, and I'd think their tune would change.

So you beleive Hannity and Limbaugh used to be liberals, and decided to convert to conservatism?

proof please!!!

Tehran Tim · #30 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 11:59 AM

Wow people are surprisingly clueless about the very people that drive American foreign policy.

To sum up, the Neocons are primarily American Jews loyal to Israel who see the world through the prism of Israel and seek to drive American foreign policy in a direction that satisfies the interests of Israel.

They were originally Democrats but gravitated to the Republican party in the last 60s and 70s when the left began to be more dovish and more sympathetic with 3rd world causes (thus less likely to support Israel). Even today most Neocons still tend to have a liberal domestic policy, but an aggressive foreign policy to further Israels interests.

Here's a link that might provide for some better understanding:

Kuwaiti strategist: Israel should strike Iran

View Poll Results: What is the core of Neocon ideology?
It is a Right Wing Jewish ideology	5	9.43%
It is a Right Wing Christian ideology	3	5.66%
It is an American Fascist ideology	22	41.51%
It is an American Nationalist ideology	12	22.64%
It is combination of Christian and Fascist	6	11.32%
It is combination of Christian and Nationalist	2	3.77%
It is combination of Jewish and Fascist	1	1.89%
It is combination of Jewish and Nationalist	2	3.77%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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