Originally Posted by treewrestler

If the Fed. were reduced and more power given to the states, the polices that materialised would be local therefor easier to control and change depending upon circumstance. If the Libertarian party ever did gain control the power shift would be big, states and localities would decide what forms of taxation to use, what social programs to implement or drop, etc. The Fed of course would be over things that effect the nation as a whole.

Originally Posted by JavaBlack

Well, to give you an idea of why I think that's not such a good idea...
I agree with cutting government and making it more efficient... but I also do not view a lot of programs as "frivelous" or in need of being removed.
The problem is that when people approach the problem of cutting budgets from the standpoint that programs need to be removed- for the sake of removing them... we set ourselves up for changes that in the longrun will not necessarily increase efficiency and may just end up weakening programs that have merit.

Libertarians do not seek to optimize programs. They seek to slowly dispose of them. The means shape the ends.
They will not address the problems that lead to inefficiencies. Rather they will assume the programs are themselves inefficiencies and focus on cutting their scope rather than their inefficiency.

It's similar to why I believe liberals should take ownership of welfare reform rather than conservatives. If we admit to the inefficiencies and problems and how programs are not doing what they should, we can alter them to do what they should and for less cost.
By not doing that we leave it to conservatives and libertarians... who seek only to destroy the programs altogether on ideological grounds.

Originally Posted by treewrestler

Giving more power to the states would also cut down on lobbyists, pork spending, etc. If said state had to spend their own money to test the crunchy'ness of apples they would probably think twice, and put that money to a better use. But of course the powers that be hate this idea as it would religate congress and the senate to only having control over foriegn affairs, the military, Hwy and postal systems, "and of course steroid use in magor league baseball".

Originally Posted by Qwaile45

1. The Cult of the Superior Man. Both libertarians and fascists think the world is divided into superior and inferior people, ubermenschen and untermenschen, and they both believe that most of the evil in the world comes from inferior people keeping the superior ones down. They both promise to release the best and the brightest from the shackles placed on them by the unworthy - whether the unworthy happen to be the "lazy poor" or "government bureaucrats" or "dirty Jews" or immigrants.

The only difference between libertarians and fascists is that libertarians don't believe (or they say they don't believe) that superior people should enforce their will on inferior people. But this is a thin line, easily crossed. Once you've convinced yourself that you're better than everyone else, it's easy to justify repressing the ignorant masses, for their own good. Which leads us neatly to the second point...





2. Opposition to democracy. Both libertarians and fascists hate democracy because they don't think inferior people should be able to tell superior people what to do. They both hate democracy because democracy gives power to the "unwashed masses" on the assumption that all people are equal. It's important to note, however, that libertarians and fascists are not necessarily hostile to the masses themselves - in fact they are often populist, from Mussolini to Ron Paul. They are only hostile to the idea of equality among the masses, and most of all to the idea of equality between the masses and the elite. Libertarians and fascists often genuinely believe that they are working to help the people, the masses, but they believe that salvation can only come from above, from the elite. Which leads us to the third point...
Quote:



3. Belief in Natural Hierarchy. Libertarians and fascists are elitists, and moreover they believe that elitism and hierarchy are part of the natural order of things. The phrase "rebellion against nature" has been used by libertarians and fascists to describe the political views of their enemies - particularly egalitarian views. Libertarians and fascists don't think their kind of society is the best among a number of competing kinds of viable societies, they believe their kind of society is the ONLY viable, "natural" kind of society. Libertarians and fascists tell the masses that they have to subject themselves to hierarchy for their own good, because hierarchy and inequality is the only way to have a civilized society.
Quote:



Those are the fundamental similarities between libertarian and fascist thinking, but there are also many other, less vital parallels:

4. Belief that the unfortunate get what they deserve. If hierarchy is natural, it follows that those at the bottom of the hierarchy are there through their own fault or their own flaws. Libertarians think the poor deserve to be poor. Fascists think oppressed races deserve to be oppressed. Both libertarians and fascists have voiced support for the "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" thesis - the idea that poor countries in Africa and Latin America are poor because their people are stupid.





It is true that fascists think poor nations are poor primarily for ethnic reasons. But not only for ethnic reasons. Fascists also always made the argument that certain nations - particularly Russia - are poor because of communism:
Quote:



5. Conspiracy theories. Unlike Marxists, who recognize that different social and economic institutions are appropriate at different stages of history, libertarians and fascists believe that their ideas are always valid, everywhere at all times. The question then arises, if their ideas are so right, and if they've always been right, how come they haven't conquered the world yet? There is only one possible explanation: conspiracy. Libertarians and fascists cannot explain their own failures, so they use all sorts of conspiracy theories to rationalize them. Someone - Jews or evil government bureaucrats - must be conspiring to smear and hide the eternal truth of libertarianism or fascism. New World Order, Federal Reserve controlled by Jews and Communists etc etc.

A conspiracy of Jews is crushing the people in the Nazi case, and a conspiracy of bureaucrats is crushing the people in the libertarian case. The people cannot see their true interests, and it is up to the fascist/libertarian to bring about a glorious rebirth based on old, forgotten values and the practices of the people's heroic ancestors (that's 19th century free marketeers or the "Founding Fathers" for you libertarians, medieval heroes for the fascists). And this is to be done by undemocratic means - because democracy is evil - and against the will of the majority if necessary.

6. The Cult of Righteous Violence. Libertarians and fascists love their guns, and they firmly uphold the use of righteous violence (that's "retaliatory force" in libertarian-speak) against their enemies. They don't see such "righteous violence" as a necessary evil, the way others may view a just war or a revolution. No, they see this violence as a good thing, something to be embraced and celebrated.

Originally Posted by Qwaile45

1. The Cult of the Superior Man. Both libertarians and fascists think the world is divided into superior and inferior people, ubermenschen and untermenschen, and they both believe that most of the evil in the world comes from inferior people keeping the superior ones down. They both promise to release the best and the brightest from the shackles placed on them by the unworthy - whether the unworthy happen to be the "lazy poor" or "government bureaucrats" or "dirty Jews" or immigrants.

The only difference between libertarians and fascists is that libertarians don't believe (or they say they don't believe) that superior people should enforce their will on inferior people. But this is a thin line, easily crossed. Once you've convinced yourself that you're better than everyone else, it's easy to justify repressing the ignorant masses, for their own good. Which leads us neatly to the second point...

Originally Posted by Qwaile45

1. The Cult of the Superior Man. Both libertarians and fascists think the world is divided into superior and inferior people, ubermenschen and untermenschen, and they both believe that most of the evil in the world comes from inferior people keeping the superior ones down. They both promise to release the best and the brightest from the shackles placed on them by the unworthy - whether the unworthy happen to be the "lazy poor" or "government bureaucrats" or "dirty Jews" or immigrants.

The only difference between libertarians and fascists is that libertarians don't believe (or they say they don't believe) that superior people should enforce their will on inferior people. But this is a thin line, easily crossed. Once you've convinced yourself that you're better than everyone else, it's easy to justify repressing the ignorant masses, for their own good. Which leads us neatly to the second point...





2. Opposition to democracy. Both libertarians and fascists hate democracy because they don't think inferior people should be able to tell superior people what to do. They both hate democracy because democracy gives power to the "unwashed masses" on the assumption that all people are equal. It's important to note, however, that libertarians and fascists are not necessarily hostile to the masses themselves - in fact they are often populist, from Mussolini to Ron Paul. They are only hostile to the idea of equality among the masses, and most of all to the idea of equality between the masses and the elite. Libertarians and fascists often genuinely believe that they are working to help the people, the masses, but they believe that salvation can only come from above, from the elite. Which leads us to the third point...
Quote:



3. Belief in Natural Hierarchy. Libertarians and fascists are elitists, and moreover they believe that elitism and hierarchy are part of the natural order of things. The phrase "rebellion against nature" has been used by libertarians and fascists to describe the political views of their enemies - particularly egalitarian views. Libertarians and fascists don't think their kind of society is the best among a number of competing kinds of viable societies, they believe their kind of society is the ONLY viable, "natural" kind of society. Libertarians and fascists tell the masses that they have to subject themselves to hierarchy for their own good, because hierarchy and inequality is the only way to have a civilized society.
Quote:



Those are the fundamental similarities between libertarian and fascist thinking, but there are also many other, less vital parallels:

4. Belief that the unfortunate get what they deserve. If hierarchy is natural, it follows that those at the bottom of the hierarchy are there through their own fault or their own flaws. Libertarians think the poor deserve to be poor. Fascists think oppressed races deserve to be oppressed. Both libertarians and fascists have voiced support for the "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" thesis - the idea that poor countries in Africa and Latin America are poor because their people are stupid.





It is true that fascists think poor nations are poor primarily for ethnic reasons. But not only for ethnic reasons. Fascists also always made the argument that certain nations - particularly Russia - are poor because of communism:
Quote:



5. Conspiracy theories. Unlike Marxists, who recognize that different social and economic institutions are appropriate at different stages of history, libertarians and fascists believe that their ideas are always valid, everywhere at all times. The question then arises, if their ideas are so right, and if they've always been right, how come they haven't conquered the world yet? There is only one possible explanation: conspiracy. Libertarians and fascists cannot explain their own failures, so they use all sorts of conspiracy theories to rationalize them. Someone - Jews or evil government bureaucrats - must be conspiring to smear and hide the eternal truth of libertarianism or fascism. New World Order, Federal Reserve controlled by Jews and Communists etc etc.

A conspiracy of Jews is crushing the people in the Nazi case, and a conspiracy of bureaucrats is crushing the people in the libertarian case. The people cannot see their true interests, and it is up to the fascist/libertarian to bring about a glorious rebirth based on old, forgotten values and the practices of the people's heroic ancestors (that's 19th century free marketeers or the "Founding Fathers" for you libertarians, medieval heroes for the fascists). And this is to be done by undemocratic means - because democracy is evil - and against the will of the majority if necessary.

6. The Cult of Righteous Violence. Libertarians and fascists love their guns, and they firmly uphold the use of righteous violence (that's "retaliatory force" in libertarian-speak) against their enemies. They don't see such "righteous violence" as a necessary evil, the way others may view a just war or a revolution. No, they see this violence as a good thing, something to be embraced and celebrated.