Political Forum
     

Go Back   Political Forum > General Political Chat > Political Opinions & Beliefs


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 11:54 AM
Birdzeye's Avatar
Birdzeye Birdzeye is offline
Analyst
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,093
usa us maryland
Birdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud of
Credits: 8,437
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
Open open open surprised.
Still no argument, eh? Then I guess you just have to concede that McCain is not the more environmental candidate after all. Too bad.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Red Cross - Donate Today    Save the Rainforest
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 11:57 AM
teeko's Avatar
teeko teeko is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Washington state
Posts: 4,165
usa us arizona
teeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud of
Credits: 49,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
Still no argument, eh? Then I guess you just have to concede that McCain is not the more environmental candidate after all. Too bad.
Reply With Quote
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 12:14 PM
Birdzeye's Avatar
Birdzeye Birdzeye is offline
Analyst
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,093
usa us maryland
Birdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud ofBirdzeye has much to be proud of
Credits: 8,437
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
Your posts are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Reply With Quote
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 12:52 PM
TheStripey1's Avatar
TheStripey1 TheStripey1 is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 752
usa us california
TheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud of
Credits: 7,615
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
Are a dime a dozen here today!
McCain's thrashing of Obama in the debate must have the Obamites on the ropes!

Its been a while since such a rabid barrage of anti McCain threads have been posted!
aww, poah ting... him wittle candidate is ripe for a lickin which we are more than happy to provide using FACTS for our threads instead of the lies the obama haters use in theirs...

and whaler isn't ready with FACTS to dispute ours so he makes this thread up to complain...

too beaver dam bad, whaler... too hoover dam bad...

could that be because there aren't any FACTS to dispute our threads?

yep...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
If the clueless call your post clueless, does that mean its a valid post?

My head hurts!
Got Tylenol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
True the board is usually filled with useless attacks on Obama. Maybe the Obama haters haven't showed up yet Whaler17.
true, inferno... countless atacks on obama and now that we're attacking McLame, the righties are all whiney about it... it sure makes me feeeel good...

and I have just begun...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jovial One View Post
Was there a debate? Isn't a debate when candidates face off with a moderator?
no... not yet... they aren't scheduled until AFTER the conventions... I haven't a clue what whaler was thinking when he said that... could be more of the right winger logic... who knows...

I sure don't... and I'm sure the lurkers don't either...

waves to the lurkers... pretty funny huh?
__________________
My NEW UPDATED Pep Talk For Lefties and Lurkers

Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others.
~~ Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 01:33 PM
TheStripey1's Avatar
TheStripey1 TheStripey1 is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 752
usa us california
TheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud of
Credits: 7,615
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
Hey Jovial One, do you realize that among Republicans, McCain is the most liberal? I don't understand why you'd compare him to Bush, who is so much farther to the right.
__________________
he's still a war monger... are you ready to enlist if he's elected? or are you going to wait to be drafted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I have said that there was no debate here so many times I was tired of typing it. I am glad you pointed that out for those that don't understand the concept of debate.
righties apparently don't understand the concept of debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
Usually the forum is littered with anti-Obama threads, and now someone's whining about anti-McCain threads? Oh, the irony!
amen brother... funny ain't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
But the anti Obama threads have merit!
how? they're all based on LIES... apparently you don't mind being lied to but frankly, I prefer truth tellers.

Too bad those are few and far between in the republican party...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird View Post
I agree with you 100%-also it is all over the news today about mccain not even being in "The Cone of Silence" like the pastor said he was-so the question thus is was this a fair forum-But that being said mccain was very good at telling us anecdotes,but what I learned the most about mccain was he is to hard set in certain opinions,we live in such a fast changing world today and to have a president with such a closed mind is not a person in my opinion fit to run this country.Case in point,we have a current president that had a stubborn mind set that we were going to war,and such a stubborn mind-set that he had intelligence reports doctored to support his actions.And mccain has that same stubborn mind-set-Not a good thing at all,
he wasn't? you mean he heard all of the questions before he came on? why that's cheating...

typical right wingers... they'll do ANYTHING to win... lie, cheat, steal... just to keep in power...

It's quite sad what our country has become... I'm beginning to think there is no hope for us...

Got Asteroid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
That is pure garbage. McCain knows what his plans are and Obama is still hiding Obama.
yeah... start WWIII... you gonna enlist or will you continue to show your support for all war all the time by just typing instead of fighting?

I volunteered for the war of my youth... did you, teeko?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusticus View Post
I think he is referring to a sequential appearance at a 22,000 member church. First Obama and then McSame spoke.

They gave Obama decent applause as he shared his beliefs and his vision for the future. They went crazy for McSame as he told of his experiences as a prisoner of the North Vietnamese.

I don't think the fact the huge audience was 100% white could have had anything to do with the difference in reception. I think it is just that this crowd was really hot for war stories?!?
And to think... those folks actually call themselves Christian...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusticus View Post
Of course McSame know what his plans are. He is simply going to continue Bushes and Cheney's plans. We'll have more wars, more incompetents put in charge of federal agencies. More difficulty getting information we should have and they'll have an easier time getting information they shouldn't have.
Got Big Brother?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
It is still not a debate. A debate is an exchage of ideas between two parties. This was two people being interviewed.
agreed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
You do realize that liking McCain and dislking Obama are not realted in any way right?

Debating approaches like that are what define you TJO!
Got dyslexia? you should really check your spelling before you hit submit...

so whaler... why do you like McCain? surely you know...
and why do you dislike Obama?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
Why does this matter?
Obama looked uncomfortable and rambling
McCain looked, well presidential!
Obama answered the questions thoughtfully and McLame rambled on and on and on about his war experiences after being so poor of a pilot he allowed himself to be shot down...

if that's what you righties call presidential and he wins, we're all in deep doodoo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makedde View Post
You are obviously getting worried that the old guy is going to lose.
I'm worried he is going to win and start WWIII... tho, on the other paw, I'd really love to see some of these loud typing war mongers decked out in camo gear and war tools on the front lines somewhere... know what I mean?

[quote=Oasis;706131]I don't really think he's a Communist.

... for now

He just makes us think that, since lefties don't notice. I admit, it is funny in a sad kind of way. But I'm sure he's having a laugh about it too.
But seriously, why don't you answer my question? I thought this was a debating forum, not a "one guy commentating on other people's blogs" sort of deal.
__________________

there are plenty of people here commenting on what is being written herein... where have you been?



Quote:
Originally Posted by NewThirdParty View Post
Really? I thought he looked like a crowd-pleaser instead of a thinking man.

What are you going to do about evil in the world?
"Defeat it"

Ya, way to go, when he steps out of Marvel and back into reality we'll all be laughing (or crying if he's president).
yep... gonna send our already overstretched military everywhere in the world that there's evil... wonders who will answer his call to arms? will the red blooded war mongering right wingers answer him by enlisting or will they slink away and hide under some rock?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird View Post
So,what part was garbage? Actually anything that comes out of mccains mouth is garbage to be honest with you-He spoke many anecdotes,should we vote for someone that tells good war stories or a person that actually thinks about the issues (OBAMA) and lays out his plans?
Speaking of garbage-the minister said "Mccain was in a cone of silence" he wasn't, he was in a motor home-When asked by the minister if he heard any of the questions,mccain answered "I tried to hear through the wall" that was a lie.
And more garbage is that it doesn't take a genius to figure out that mccain has no NEW energy policies-his energy advisor(Phil Gramm)thinks we are a nation of whiners and this recession is all in our heads,And that is what mccain is going with.more garbage,mccain said he no longer uses Gramm) that is a lie-mccain was spotted with Gramm just 4 days ago at a fundraiser.
right wingers love liars... I sure don't and it appears you don't... and I'm sure our lurker pals don't either... but the righties sure do...

I guess when they don't have facts to debate with, they resort to making stuff up... and hoping that those with intellects that match theirs, agrees with them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaBlack View Post
Huh?
Each one of them has a position or two where they veer to the left.
For Bush it tends to be humanitarian stuff. For McCain it's the environment.
Other than that they both pretty much subscribe to the Reagan doctrine (Reagan had a couple liberal positions too, like getting rid of nukes).

McCain has conformed almost entirely to the generic Republican template.
yep... McCain = Bush = war war war...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
And will work vigorously to maintain it, should the righties once again vote a dangerous, warmongering idiot into office.
amen sister... scarey thought isn't it?
__________________
My NEW UPDATED Pep Talk For Lefties and Lurkers

Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others.
~~ Socrates

Last edited by TheStripey1; 08-21-2008 at 01:38 PM. Reason: got typo?
Reply With Quote
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:12 PM
teeko's Avatar
teeko teeko is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Washington state
Posts: 4,165
usa us arizona
teeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud ofteeko has much to be proud of
Credits: 49,916
Default

[quote=TheStripey1;713359]he's still a war monger... are you ready to enlist if he's elected? or are you going to wait to be drafted?



righties apparently don't understand the concept of debate...



amen brother... funny ain't it?



how? they're all based on LIES... apparently you don't mind being lied to but frankly, I prefer truth tellers.

Too bad those are few and far between in the republican party...



he wasn't? you mean he heard all of the questions before he came on? why that's cheating...

typical right wingers... they'll do ANYTHING to win... lie, cheat, steal... just to keep in power...

It's quite sad what our country has become... I'm beginning to think there is no hope for us...

Got Asteroid?



yeah... start WWIII... you gonna enlist or will you continue to show your support for all war all the time by just typing instead of fighting?

I volunteered for the war of my youth... did you, teeko?



And to think... those folks actually call themselves Christian...



Got Big Brother?



agreed...



Got dyslexia? you should really check your spelling before you hit submit...

so whaler... why do you like McCain? surely you know...
and why do you dislike Obama?



Obama answered the questions thoughtfully and McLame rambled on and on and on about his war experiences after being so poor of a pilot he allowed himself to be shot down...

if that's what you righties call presidential and he wins, we're all in deep doodoo...



I'm worried he is going to win and start WWIII... tho, on the other paw, I'd really love to see some of these loud typing war mongers decked out in camo gear and war tools on the front lines somewhere... know what I mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
I don't really think he's a Communist.

... for now

He just makes us think that, since lefties don't notice. I admit, it is funny in a sad kind of way. But I'm sure he's having a laugh about it too.
But seriously, why don't you answer my question? I thought this was a debating forum, not a "one guy commentating on other people's blogs" sort of deal.
__________________

there are plenty of people here commenting on what is being written herein... where have you been?





yep... gonna send our already overstretched military everywhere in the world that there's evil... wonders who will answer his call to arms? will the red blooded war mongering right wingers answer him by enlisting or will they slink away and hide under some rock?



right wingers love liars... I sure don't and it appears you don't... and I'm sure our lurker pals don't either... but the righties sure do...

I guess when they don't have facts to debate with, they resort to making stuff up... and hoping that those with intellects that match theirs, agrees with them...



yep... McCain = Bush = war war war...



amen sister... scarey thought isn't it?
Yes I did US Navy 1975-1979
Reply With Quote
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 03:27 PM
TheStripey1's Avatar
TheStripey1 TheStripey1 is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 752
usa us california
TheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud of
Credits: 7,615
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaaman View Post
LOL!
Do you have anything to offer other than dull liberal talking points? Please.
why bother? all you'll do is counter with dumb righty talking points garnered from the likes of limpbaugh and mikey not so savage and the biggest right winger loser of all... billo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
I'm just enjoying Barry's decline! Its quite fun to watch!
and when McLame bites the dust... what will you do then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whaler17 View Post
Blank meaningles baselss unsupported garbage. Do you have anything you can back up to post?

Apparenty it really bothers you that Obama has no record to point to showing what he would do in office, and McCain obviously does. Furthermore, McCain's record does not support your drivvel posted here. It must such being an Obama apologist!
I have a thread here called Swift Boating McCain... do drop by it and dispute anything within it that you can... and be sure to bring FACTS with you too...

not just your biased opinion...

thanks...

and I'll await your arrival there with bated breath...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
1) McCain criticized the Iraq War more and earlier than other Republicans

2) McCain co-sponsored acts with Democrats more than other Republicans

3) McCain is more environmental
1) Really? when? Got any links to back this up?
2) see #1
3) see #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainyanker View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/...ain/index.html

I agree with the author of the article in the link, McCain is intellectually shallow. He graduated 894th out of a class of 899, 5th from the bottom.

When asked recently to define 'rich', after trying to dodge the question -- his wife is worth a reported $100 million -- he finally said he thought an income of $5 million was rich.
That's an INCOME of five million a year. He is out of touch with reality and some want him for President? And he only thinks of '$$' when 'rich' is mentioned...

He was asked "if evil exists." His response was to repeat for the umpteenth time that Osama bin Laden is a bad man and he will pursue him to "the gates of hell." That was it.

Shallowness in a leader will only bring on more of what we have seen Moe Bush do to this country.
Amen, brother... amen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makedde View Post
I like watching McCain's forgetfulness.
It's called senility and it is quite common in men his age...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewThirdParty View Post
And what in office has McCain done that you are so proud of?
hoover dam good question... I wonder if there will be a substantive answer...

I doubt it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird View Post
Finer words were never spoken-27 years in the Senate and what,his ads say washington is broken,well dud,is he is proud of the fact that he is part of the reason that washington is broken.Mccain supporters will come back and say he authored the surge,when he in fact did not,it was patreus who was already incorporporating the surge before mccain even brought it up,and then mccain takes full credit for it-what a loser.And there is an article in the papers that state that the torture mccain speaks of when prisoner of war,according to bush and washington policies,the procedures that were taken out on mccain is the same procedures the US uses on their captures,and is not according to bush,torture, and mccain agrees,So mccain would like us all to believe "WOE is me,when in fact it is all pander.I will find the story and provide the link in a bit.
please do... that would make interesting reading...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
http://lcv.org/voterguide/

If you click this link, you'll find that the League of Conservation Voters has given McCain and Obama the following lifetime ratings:

McCain 26%
Obama 92%
Hmmm, I guess McLame doesn't care about the environment afterall... not nearly as much as his supporters claim he does anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
That is pure BS
so is your opinion... got any FACTS to dispute the link provided? Or are you just going to give us your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
Oh, really? How so?
no facts, Birdz, just his opinion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
If you don't know you have not done your homework.
Birdz provided the link, you provided BS... if you want to dispute the link provided, come with one or more of your own... that's how these discussion boards work, teeko... your point... your homework... we do not do your homework for you... you do it for yourself...

unless of course, you don't know how to do research... so if you'll admit you are clueless about researching your points, we MIGHT cut you some slack...

maybe....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
I know exactly what I'm talking about. Your evasiveness suggests that you don't wish to back up your previous statement. Got any credible evidence to show that McCain is "green," even "greener" than Obama?
all opinion, no factual links to dispute lefty points... which is typical of right wingers these days...

dang... whatever happened to all the good righty posters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
I didn't know Obama was green thanks for the info.
Where are your links proveing me wrong it works both ways.
Birdz provided it... you blew it off with your BS opinion... do try to do some research and get back to us with some facts... we'll be here waiting...

but we won't be holding our breath...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Sam View Post
I inivite you to go to his website and check them out for yourself instead of mindlessly repeating everything you hear on talk radio.
if they didn't get their talking points from their radio gurus, where do you think they would get them?

surely you don't expect them, as I do and Birdz does, to actually do some research???

not bloody likely, my friend, not bloody likely...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
I gave you the link. You dismissed it, but declined to provide any kind of reasoned counterargument. I guess you don't have one, so you have to pretend.
welcome to the wild and crazy world of political discussion boards... one side provides a factual statement supported by a corroborating link and the other responds with BS...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
Brick come in all sizes.
you should know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
What does global warming have to do with threads attacking McCain??
Did you even click on Mccain or did you see the picture about Global warming and think that that was all there was to it? I bet that is what happened... you saw that and hit "back"... well... here ya go, teeko...



and here's Obama's cuz I know you didn't bother to click on his name:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
You still have no counterargument to provide, I see.
nope... just more BS opinion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
So you addressed only one topic where is the other links?
the point is... where are YOURS? got any that supports the claim McCain is more environmental than Obama? or are we to believe that that is true simply because you say so...

sorry charlie but that ol dawg don't hunt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
Global warming is a democrat pile of crap. The earth has been warming and cooling before people we are not causing global warming Just think about it the Ice age was cold the stone age was warm, It is crazy to think people caused it. We might add to it but even if we were not here it will happen.
what does McCain's environmental score have to do with Global Warming? Where are your links refuting that Obama is greener than McCain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
Your point is??
McCain is lame when it comes to the environment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
I'm not talking about global warming. I was rebutting someone else's claim that McCain was "more environmental." You dismissed my rebuttal, but have thus far refused to elaborate, except to go off on tangents.

So, why did you object to my rebuttal?
because it disagrees with his opinion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
The point was my rebuttal of someone else's claim that McCain is "more environmental." Are you going to elaborate on your objections to my rebuttal or are you conceding that you have no argument?
I bet no to both...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
You replyed with global warming was not that your point ? McCain is more enviromental McCain knows global warming is a only democrats believe in. McCain will drill for oil without bothering the polar bears.
Let's start drilling for oil off Florida's coast BEFORE we invade ANWR... I'm in favor of that... how about you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
Show me where I said something about global warming. I take it you have no reasoned rebuttal against MY rebuttal of the claim that McCain is "more environmental."
he saw the picture and figured that was ALL there was there... he didn't notice all the presidential candidates on the left... or the fact that behind each name was that persons' record on the environment...

you can lead a right winger to a link, but you can never make them open them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Sam View Post
I guess that's why you are supporting a candidate that believes in global warming?
shhhh... he doesn't know McLame believes global warming is real...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post
Open open open surprise.
what does that mean? got a clue?
__________________
My NEW UPDATED Pep Talk For Lefties and Lurkers

Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others.
~~ Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 03:29 PM
TheStripey1's Avatar
TheStripey1 TheStripey1 is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 752
usa us california
TheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud ofTheStripey1 has much to be proud of
Credits: 7,615
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
Still no argument, eh? Then I guess you just have to concede that McCain is not the more environmental candidate after all. Too bad.
Righties don't concede anything... surely you have realized this by now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post
Your posts are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
now that's a funny comparison... I like it alot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeko View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStripey1 View Post
I volunteered for the war of my youth... did you, teeko?

Yes I did US Navy 1975-1979
there was a war on then? really? where?

cuz teeko... I didn't ask you if you served in the military... I asked you if you have been IN a war as I have...

I VOLUNTEERED TO GO TO VIET NAM.

yeah I know... dumbassed macho kids will do anything for their country... those that truly love it anyway... nowdays... many of those that support war are just cheerleading them from the comfort of their living room or their parents' basement instead of actually participating in them...

I guess, IMNSHO, those folks don't really love their country...
__________________
My NEW UPDATED Pep Talk For Lefties and Lurkers

Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others.
~~ Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2