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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Zoe View Post
Nonsense. What has the U.S. gained by torturing people?

Recently, World War 2 interrogators were recognized for their contributions. Until recently their work had been classified. They made a point of discussing their technique of dealing with the captive Germans. They gained a great deal of useful intelligence by simply befriending their prisoners. Did the side who fought "fair" lose the war?
Every person is different Zoe. Just b/c you can befriend some, doesnt mean you can use that technique on all others. If that werent true, then there would onlybe 1 technique ever mentioned, but we know that not to be the case.

Do you expect the US to divulge anything else other then the basic PC techniques?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2008, 08:07 AM
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:17 AM
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Did anybody miss the part where it said that interrogation experts find torture to be largely ineffectual? You would think that would in the discussion there. It simply doesn't work very well. I'm not talking about psychologists either who figured this out in some controlled study. Most military, intelligence and interrogation experts feel the same way just like the article said.

The only US government organization that endorses torture is the CIA. That's pretty much it. Here are two examples. It should also be noted that we should care what others think about our methods of interrogation because the more we use torture the more will our enemies. I'm starting to wonder if it's even about helping people with the intelligence enemies might provide or is this just about giving terrorists what they think they deserve.


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By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

An up-to-date illustration of the colonel's point appeared in recently released FBI documents from the naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. These show, among other things, that some military intelligence officers wanted to use harsher interrogation methods than the FBI did. As a result, complained one inspector, "every time the FBI established a rapport with a detainee, the military would step in and the detainee would stop being cooperative." So much for the utility of torture.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Jan11.html

Last edited by rodog; 08-21-2008 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
These are not my views. These are just facts...lol. Nations torture. Some to a certain degree more then others.
Some nations torture. The ones that consider themselves outside the law - like China, Iran, USA. The rogue nations. The ones who have absolutely no right to ever think of themselves as morally better than anyone. Put simply - the scum.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bugalugs View Post
Some nations torture. The ones that consider themselves outside the law - like China, Iran, USA. The rogue nations. The ones who have absolutely no right to ever think of themselves as morally better than anyone. Put simply - the scum.
I'm certainly glad you don't represent the best of Australia. It's unfortunate for you that you live in a country that is one of the standup supporters of the good old USA. Please move to America, we could use another anti-American living amongst us.

I am one American that is very appreciative of Australia's taking a stand against terrorism and evil. Thank you Australia.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BFOJ View Post
I'm certainly glad you don't represent the best of Australia. It's unfortunate for you that you live in a country that is one of the standup supporters of the good old USA. Please move to America, we could use another anti-American living amongst us.
So, clue me in here- are you saying that opposition to torture is synonymous with being "anti-American"? OH DEAR
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Oxymoron View Post
Few points about torture to gain information:

1. If the subject has the information he will tell it.
He might. He might not. His interrogator might not know what questions to ask. The W.W.2 interrogators didn't know why anyone would want to refine uranium. So, you would condone torture even though it is the least efficient way to extract information?

I imagine that it is ridiculously easy to get information out of people w/o physical abuse. All you have to do is flatter a lonely, isolated person and they will spill their guts eventually. Look at the internet! People love to talk about themselves.

My guess is that people torture because they like to- that is the horrifying truth.
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Zoe View Post
So, clue me in here- are you saying that opposition to torture is synonymous with being "anti-American"? OH DEAR
Perhaps, if they are believe that America is amongst the countries that are known for their cruel methods of torture. It's really a stretch for someone to think that American torture is in the same league as that of other terrorist sponsoring countries such as Iran, North Korea, Russia and the terrorists themselves. If you accept that America is in the business of torture I'd suggest you take a poll amongst those that have been tortured (if they're still alive) and ask them what country they would prefer to be a prisoner of, which country would most likely not torture them. Of course a poll like this is not probable, suffice it to say that you would have to have a special hatred for America to accept the vicious lies being perpetrated by the 'hate America' crowd. In those people's minds America is always the bad guy, the cause of all strife around the world, the devil himself. When I hear this crap coming out of someone's mouth, then immediately I know they themselves are angry, hateful, spiteful individuals that have misdirected their thoughts to the wrong place and there is little hope for them to be rational and fair in their views.

If America is such a hateful place why aren't people escaping to go elsewhere where they may live in peace and not have to put up with us evil people? What country is called first to help out in times of world tragedies, hunger, protecting the freedoms and rights of others? What country has made more sacrifice protecting and defending others? The anti-American crowd gives no credit to America for the good it has accomplished in an ungrateful world. OH DEAR!
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Old 08-22-2008, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BFOJ View Post
Perhaps, if they are believe that America is amongst the countries that are known for their cruel methods of torture. It's really a stretch for someone to think that American torture is in the same league as that of other terrorist sponsoring countries such as Iran, North Korea, Russia and the terrorists themselves. If you accept that America is in the business of torture I'd suggest you take a poll amongst those that have been tortured (if they're still alive) and ask them what country they would prefer to be a prisoner of, which country would most likely not torture them. Of course a poll like this is not probable, suffice it to say that you would have to have a special hatred for America to accept the vicious lies being perpetrated by the 'hate America' crowd. In those people's minds America is always the bad guy, the cause of all strife around the world, the devil himself. When I hear this crap coming out of someone's mouth, then immediately I know they themselves are angry, hateful, spiteful individuals that have misdirected their thoughts to the wrong place and there is little hope for them to be rational and fair in their views.

If America is such a hateful place why aren't people escaping to go elsewhere where they may live in peace and not have to put up with us evil people? What country is called first to help out in times of world tragedies, hunger, protecting the freedoms and rights of others? What country has made more sacrifice protecting and defending others? The anti-American crowd gives no credit to America for the good it has accomplished in an ungrateful world. OH DEAR!
Torture is torture.

That other countries may be worse torturers than the USA is nothing to be proud of.

It does not make the torture by the USA to be any less abhorrent.

It is torture.

It is illegal.

It is something that civilised countries do not do.
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Old 08-22-2008, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BFOJ View Post
I'm certainly glad you don't represent the best of Australia. It's unfortunate for you that you live in a country that is one of the standup supporters of the good old USA. Please move to America, we could use another anti-American living amongst us.

I am one American that is very appreciative of Australia's taking a stand against terrorism and evil. Thank you Australia.
The spineless little arsehole who led our country into the illegal war in Iraq has gone. The spineless little arsehole who covered up torture by Americans has gone. I still hope to see him prosecuted one day for his war crimes. He (*)(*)(*)(*)ing disgusts me.

He disgusted the people of Australia. That is why he has been consigned to the (*)(*)(*)(*)-heap of history.
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