Political Forum
     

Go Back   Political Forum > General Political Chat > Political Opinions & Beliefs


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 07:59 PM
Solutionone's Avatar
Solutionone Solutionone is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 454
Solutionone has a spectacular aura aboutSolutionone has a spectacular aura about
Credits: 1,730
Default

Making 40k$ a year would require an annual income of about 65k$ with income taxing and automated pension.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Red Cross - Donate Today    Save the Rainforest
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:09 PM
Rusticus's Avatar
Rusticus Rusticus is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 67
Posts: 818
usa us maryland
Rusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 4,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotNews View Post
I thought we were at war with Iraq. I have not seen any troops in the factories.
Why would there be troops in factories? How many factories have you been in?

Quote:
But seriously. Isn't what your saying, albeit in a very lengthy but over-simplified way that the poor condition of the blue collar workers is all the republicans fault? Democrats are as much to blame with there liberal immigration policies which have kept wages down by flooding the labor marker with cheap labor, and high taxes which keep the middle class from getting a step ahead.
This is such a great opportunity for you to learn.

The war against the poor, labor and the middle class was started by Ronald Reagen. He let labor know where he stood when he fired 11,500 air traffic controllers. Then he let industry know that he was not going to enforce labor laws. There would be no protection for those trying to unionize. Safety regulations were't going to be enforced. Things were going to be great for the corporations. But wait, there's more.

Labor still not cheap enough? No problem. Reagen also stopped enforcement of the immigration laws so industry could bring in REALLY cheap labor.

And the rest, as they say, is history.
__________________
I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crises. The great point is to bring them the real facts.
Abraham Lincoln
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:11 PM
Palmetto Publius's Avatar
Palmetto Publius Palmetto Publius is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 852
usa us south carolina
Palmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of light
Credits: 3,160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiva_TD View Post
I know, many Americans are opposed to these ideas but they hide their heads in the sand by doing so. What needs to be done is clearly evident but will the People support what really needs to be done to return America to a sound economy that creates jobs which benefit the People and all of America?
In short, the answer is no, we won't.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:14 PM
Rusticus's Avatar
Rusticus Rusticus is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 67
Posts: 818
usa us maryland
Rusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 4,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABoyNamedSue View Post
It's cute whenever the socialists start whining about how "bad they have it," and how they pine for draconian governmental control.

Keep thinkin' that, Komrades.

Then again, I guess it's easier for lazy folks to just beg Mother Government for stuff, than it is to provide for yourself through hard work and motivation. Easier to knock "the other guy" down to your level, than it is to pick yourself up to his.

To those folks, I say: "Next time, trim around my mailbox, like I told you to, after you mow my lawn."
I'm really curious. How did you become a moderator?
__________________
I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crises. The great point is to bring them the real facts.
Abraham Lincoln
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:17 PM
Danik Danik is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 491
usa us maryland
Danik is just really niceDanik is just really niceDanik is just really niceDanik is just really niceDanik is just really nice
Credits: 4,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiva_TD View Post
The OpEd is near-sighted and makes several false statements.

The emergence of the United States as an industrial superpower originated in the early 20th century and I would point to Henry Ford as a leader in this regard. Henry Ford initiated a 40 hr work week and doubled the wages of his employees all without a union in place at the time. This raised the "cost of wages" thoughout the country. Of course he also initiated other production improvements like the assembly line on a massive scale that hadn't been seen before in the auto industry.

And wage increases unrelated to increased production do not drive inflation but are a response to inflation. Inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply. The more dollars in circulation the less each one is worth. It was the printing of unsupported dollars based upon a change from species money to fiat money that lead to inflation. In a fiat money economy the government can simply print more money which drives inflation. Species money is tied to a commodity and has an actual value based upon that commodity whereas fiat money is not tied to a commodity and has no intrinsic value.

I would also cite the income tax as the major cause behind the decline in America's competitiveness as an industrial power. The increase in the income tax as a means for funding the US government directly correlates to the decline in industry in America. We see industrial jobs being outsourced to other country because they can produce the same goods for less on the international markets. It is estimated that the cost of US products is 15-25% more because if the hidden taxes imposed by the income tax. Without those hidden taxes our products would be competitive on the international markets and because of them they are not. If we cannot compete internationally then we lose the jobs associated with production because those jobs are outsourced to countries that can compete.

These problems that have lead to the loss of jobs and productivity in America can be blamed equally on both parties. Both supported the change from species money to fiat money. Both parties supported the income tax. Both parties support deficit spending.

These three factors are at the heart of why America is losing jobs and why the economy suffers. It is time to eliminate the income tax and replace it with another means of funding the government. It is time to go back to species money preferrably backed by gold or silver. It is time to stop deficit spending and to pay off the national debt. If we do these three simple things American would once agian become the industrial giant we have the capabilities to be.

Yes, to do these things requires that the US stop spending trillions of dollars on international interventionism and to stop creating more tax and spend social programs. We need to figure out how to phase out Social Security which will drive additional taxation starting by 2017. We need to phase out Medicare which is going to be a tax drain that America cannot support in the future. I know, many Americans are opposed to these ideas but they hide their heads in the sand by doing so. What needs to be done is clearly evident but will the People support what really needs to be done to return America to a sound economy that creates jobs which benefit the People and all of America?
I agree with everything except going back to gold-backed money. Fiat money when controlled correctly is far superior. I don't see how indexing currency off one good is a wise decision, when there are many goods that also hold value. One of the only things that has indisputable value is land. I don't see how having a species currency would prevent the government from borrowing and irresponsible spending. Like you said, people need to get their head out of the sand and realize social programs like Social Security and Medicare are not smart and not sustainable.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:28 PM
Palmetto Publius's Avatar
Palmetto Publius Palmetto Publius is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 852
usa us south carolina
Palmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of light
Credits: 3,160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusticus View Post
This is such a great opportunity for you to learn.
Equally for you.

Quote:
The war against the poor, labor and the middle class was started by Ronald Reagen. He let labor know where he stood when he fired 11,500 air traffic controllers.
He had every right to fire them. They broke their contract and illegally went on strike which would have crippled this entire nation had Reagan not been prepared for this ahead of time. It's exactly the same thing Michael Bloomberg should have done with the transportation workers who went on strike in New York City last year, but he didn't have the balls that Reagan had.

Furthermore, it was high time somebody pushed back at the unions. They were getting far too powerful, too corrupt, too spoiled and it was hurting the American economy. They kept asking for more and more and more. If you want to see the results I recommend you pay a visit to Detroit.

Unions were good in the beginning but as is human nature they became inebriated on their own power.

Quote:
Then he let industry know that he was not going to enforce labor laws.
Example?

Quote:
Safety regulations weren't going to be enforced.
Example?

Quote:
Things were going to be great for the corporations.
I have never understood this abhorrence some people have to the idea that American business be successful. Things should be going great for corporations. American businesses succeeding are a good thing for America. Without these corporations, you don't have a job. The more they succeed, the more jobs there are. What is the alternative? Cross our fingers and hope they have it rough and fail? Boy, that will be great for the economy, won't it?

Quote:
Labor still not cheap enough? No problem. Reagen also stopped enforcement of the immigration laws so industry could bring in REALLY cheap labor
On this point, you are accurate. Reagan literally granted amnesty to some three million illegal aliens in this country and his action is directly responsible for the mess we are sorting out today with illegal immigration.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:31 PM
Danik Danik is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 491
usa us maryland
Danik is just really niceDanik is just really niceDanik is just really niceDanik is just really niceDanik is just really nice
Credits: 4,670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solon View Post
America’s greatest economic prosperity occurred during a period when labor, business, and government coexisted in a structure of countervailing power. Workers are largely powerless to influence wages, hours, and working conditions in their relationship to their employers, especially multi-nationals, unless they can organize collectively and bargain for improvements. That only occurs in a system where the government establishes laws and regulations that permit a balance between these competing interests. Government can intervene to support one side or the other. If either gets too much power the economy suffers. If labor is too powerful wages can drive an inflationary spiral that undermines prosperity. If corporations get too much power the preponderance of wealth generated by the economy goes to CEOs, upper echelon executives, and corporate profits while workers’ wages stagnate. The situation we have today.

Beginning with the Reagan era the government tilted decisively toward the interests of business with the Bush administration representing the high point (to date) of this trend. In fact, the last 30 years have witnessed a Republican war on the American worker. The advocates of a laissez-faire market actually got their wish with the blessing of the Fed and Congress when the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed and deregulation of private banking became the norm. Regulations remained in place for traditional banks, but hedge funds, investment banks, and brokerages undertook to create and package investment instruments that were outside the Fed’s mandate or the control of Congress. These new organizations and instruments were all highly profitable and operated behind a veil of secrecy through which no government agency could peer.

Unfortunately, as President Bush said, the laissez-faire market “got drunk” on its success and, as all laissez-faire markets have done historically, it crashed. The disastrous effects have been felt over the entire economy and continue to plague us. In times of prosperity, businesses seek to minimize government regulations and operate on a laissez-faire basis. As we see, when facing a collapse from their own excesses, they beg for rescue from the government.

It is time for the government to reestablish the balance that existed between labor and government in the post-WWII era. Even so convinced a capitalist as the Secretary of the Treasury has called for a far more intrusive set of regulations on these new financial entities and instruments to prevent another disaster. While this is a fix for the boom and bust cycle characteristic of an unregulated market, it is insufficient to restore the balance between labor and business. American is still a rich and prosperous nation, but, as the wisest capitalist, Henry Ford, recognized, it cannot remain so unless workers enjoy the benefits of their productivity and are able to grow in wealth also. At this point in time, either we will find a way to regain our footing in the world economy in a way that spreads the wealth to workers as well as CEO’s, or we will continue to sell out our middle class and undermine the broad foundation of our economic strength.
It depends on how unions and monopolies in general act. The Teacher's union and the US Auto Workers Union are prime examples of failures. Similar to how people demand government spending that would drive their future generations into the ground, the Auto Workers unions guaranteed that they lost their jobs for short term gain, and unsustainable promises like their pension plans (ironically much like the situation of Social Security and Medicare).

The other problem with the "war on labor" is that our economy has become largely service based. Let's face it, many of these jobs are tokens that could be handled by people themselves. Working in fast food, waiting tables, etc. are not necessary. When people lower their demand for unnecessary things, these jobs get cut. It isn't that they are being screwed, it's that the economy cannot support them. Energy prices are going to cause this country to "cut the fat". Jobs that people hold more valuable will remain, while conveniences will not. Technology, capital, and human capital are what drives economic growth. Our country does well with technology, but we cannot even get the fruits of it on a global scale due to piracy and not honoring the patents in the cases of pharmaceutical drugs. Our capital investments are negative right now, and in order for an economy to continue to thrive, the worker must be more educated and more skilled for specialized tasks.

America killed the blue collar worker when we became largely service based. Certain industries are limited and depend highly on economies of scale. Working on Wall Street only requires so many people, and they deal with such high volume that these individuals make a fortune. It also killed the blue collar worker when we took on massive social programs and other BS that is slowly eating up all of our tax revenue that could otherwise be used for jobs that aim at improving our infrastructure. Paying someone's life for 20 years adds nothing to the economy, yet people want to be taken care of in their old age. Sadly, this type of care is not sustainable. It also rarely takes into account quality of life, which is something that I find shocking. If I was extremely ill, debilitated, and bed ridden, I would likely choose to pass on. I don't understand the point of massive procedures, hospital time, etc. for someone who is 80 years old and well on their way to dying shortly anyway.

Last edited by Danik; 08-23-2008 at 08:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:32 PM
Palmetto Publius's Avatar
Palmetto Publius Palmetto Publius is offline
Commentator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 852
usa us south carolina
Palmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of lightPalmetto Publius is a glorious beacon of light
Credits: 3,160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danik View Post
Like you said, people need to get their head out of the sand and realize social programs like Social Security and Medicare are not smart and not sustainable.
Humans are not proactive creatures. We are reactive. Nothing will be done with either of these programs until the (*)(*)(*)(*) hits the fan and we have a colossal mess on our hands. And then of course, which ever party is in power at the time will be blamed for it by the other even though it's both their faults and the partisan mudslinging will begin, thus holding off a solution even longer making matters worse; tis the American way
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 08:53 PM
Rusticus's Avatar
Rusticus Rusticus is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 67
Posts: 818
usa us maryland
Rusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 4,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiva_TD View Post
The OpEd is near-sighted and makes several false statements.
What op ed?


Quote:
Inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply. The more dollars in circulation the less each one is worth.
The government can also shrink the money supply which stops inflation.

Quote:
I would also cite the income tax as the major cause behind the decline in America's competitiveness as an industrial power. The increase in the income tax as a means for funding the US government directly correlates to the decline in industry in America.
Is that your opinion or do you have any data to back that up.

Quote:
We see industrial jobs being outsourced to other country because they can produce the same goods for less on the international markets. It is estimated that the cost of US products is 15-25% more because if the hidden taxes imposed by the income tax.
We are losing jobs to countries where the prevailing wage is half or less than the wage in the US. Nobody is moving jobs out of the US for 15 - 25%

Quote:
Without those hidden taxes our products would be competitive on the international markets and because of them they are not. If we cannot compete internationally then we lose the jobs associated with production because those jobs are outsourced to countries that can compete.
Cutting taxes is not going to help us compete with countries where the labor cost is $0.40 - $4.00 per hour.

Quote:
These problems that have lead to the loss of jobs and productivity in America can be blamed equally on both parties. Both supported the change from species money to fiat money. Both parties supported the income tax. Both parties support deficit spending.
Since no other country is on the gold standard, that can't be the reason we are losing jobs. There has been no loss in productivity. Our productivity has steadily increased. Our industrial productivity is the highest in the world.

Quote:
Yes, to do these things requires that the US stop spending trillions of dollars on international interventionism.
Absolutely!!!


Quote:
and to stop creating more tax and spend social programs. We need to figure out how to phase out Social Security which will drive additional taxation starting by 2017.
That prediction is based on the assumption that immigration will level off at 1,000,000 per year. It is actually estimated that immigration will not level off but will grow to about 2.4 million. This will keep the social security system in fine shape.

Quote:
We need to phase out Medicare which is going to be a tax drain that America cannot support in the future. I know, many Americans are opposed to these ideas but they hide their heads in the sand by doing so. What needs to be done is clearly evident but will the People support what really needs to be done to return America to a sound economy that creates jobs which benefit the People and all of America?
I think the death of our economy is being greatly exagerated.
__________________
I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crises. The great point is to bring them the real facts.
Abraham Lincoln
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2008, 09:05 PM
Rusticus's Avatar
Rusticus Rusticus is offline
Sr. Correspondent
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 67
Posts: 818
usa us maryland
Rusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to beholdRusticus is a splendid one to behold
Credits: 4,603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solutionone View Post
Making 40k$ a year would require an annual income of about 65k$ with income taxing and automated pension.
If you're not bringing home 47,000 from 65K, you better look for some help preparing your taxes.
__________________
I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crises. The great point is to bring them the real facts.
Abraham Lincoln
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Army worker charged with aiding Israel junjobx2199 Intelligence 2 04-24-2008 08:57 AM
What does worker exploitation mean? Aryeh Political Opinions & Beliefs 14 10-18-2006 06:35 PM
Fast-food worker tosses hot grease at customer barney-fife Current Events 15 05-06-2006 09:00 AM
The future of the US "guest worker" program Rebellion Immigration 0 04-19-2006 05:14 AM
republican = NEO CON = UN-american lonerider103 Current Events 7 09-29-2005 03:28 AM

Sponsored Links

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0
Template-Modifikationen durch TMS
vBCredits v1.3 ©2007 by Darkwaltz4
Advertisement System V2.1 By   Branden