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Old 08-30-2008, 04:48 PM
axiomtek axiomtek is offline
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Default Obama For Middle Class?, Explain something for me.

I was browsing youtube, watching old RNC protests & different protests. One thing I notice is how people always say "Bush/Republican/Mccain" is for the rich and against the middle class.

How do you justify that?
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Old 08-30-2008, 10:21 PM
JLocke77 JLocke77 is offline
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Well, McCain will make the Bush tax cuts (primarily for the rich) permanent, and wants to reduce taxes in general. Obama wants to cut taxes for the middle-class much more than McCain does. Those making $38 to $66 thousand will see an average tax decrease of over $1000 under Obama; under McCain, it would be only around $300. Obama's tax plan provides relief for the main consumers in society, while McCain's plan mainly helps the rich.

Also, we're in a huge budget deficit right now, due to Bush tax cuts, the Iraq war, and social security; McCain's additional cuts will force the United States to borrow even more money from overseas, sending our currency down even farther. McCain will also reduce the scope of federal social programs, which are designed to help the middle and lower classes. However, McCain wants to cut the taxes of millionaires by around 300k/year. McCain seems to care more about the rich preserving their wealth than for providing resources and programs for the general public, the middle and lower classes.
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:42 AM
lawhite lawhite is offline
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For those making $50,000 a year, the average tax increase by letting the Bush tax plan expire in 2010 will be from $1400 to nearly $2000, depending whether you are single or what your filing status is.

Obama will let this present tax plan expire.

THEN he gives those same people making $50,000 a $1000 tax cut instead??? It seems to me that that is a $400 to $1000 tax INCREASE! Or is something wrong with my math???

McCain is keeping the Bush tax cuts and increasing the deductions for each child and other tax credits. So his $300 increase in tax credits will be an ACTUAL tax cut.

Seems like Obama is a sneaky snake oil salesman to me.

Think, people, think!

Last edited by lawhite; 10-30-2008 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axiomtek View Post
I was browsing youtube, watching old RNC protests & different protests. One thing I notice is how people always say "Bush/Republican/Mccain" is for the rich and against the middle class.

How do you justify that?
They can't because the Republicans would be the ones for real fairness. The wealthy pay a higher percentage per dollar earned than the poor, the Republicans are the ones who want to bring that down to be fair to them.

Fair would be everyone paying the same. When you go to the movies should you pay $50 to see a movie because the kid on minimum wage is only charged $2? Everyone should pay $8-10 each.

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Last edited by Guy Fawkes; 10-30-2008 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:32 AM
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Default Rubbish. Here is a better analogy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes View Post
They can't because the Republicans would be the ones for real fairness. The wealthy pay a higher percentage per dollar earned than the poor, the Republicans are the ones who want to bring that down to be fair to them.

Fair would be everyone paying the same. When you go to the movies should you pay $50 to see a movie because the kid on minimum wage is only charged $2? Everyone should pay $8-10 each.
A family goes out to dinner. Everyone in the family is expected to attend. The wealthiest, most powerful member of the family chooses the restaurant and he/she chooses the most expensive restaurant in town. He/she can easily pick up the tab but instead he demands that his minimum wage earning nephew pay the same share of the bill that Mr.Wealthy pays. Is that fair?

Even Adam Smith understood the necessity of a progressive income tax.
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Fawkes View Post
Fair would be everyone paying the same. When you go to the movies should you pay $50 to see a movie because the kid on minimum wage is only charged $2? Everyone should pay $8-10 each.
Good point.

You know companies are already deciding to hold off expansion before election because they fear for Barack's tax plan. Those are lost jobs!!! Don't you think it's better to help the poor by creating more jobs? Would they rather have an extra $500 or a job. Glenn Beck brought up a great point....Can someone explain exactly how trickle up economics works??

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Old 10-30-2008, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe View Post
A family goes out to dinner. Everyone in the family is expected to attend. The wealthiest, most powerful member of the family chooses the restaurant and he/she chooses the most expensive restaurant in town. He/she can easily pick up the tab but instead he demands that his minimum wage earning nephew pay the same share of the bill that Mr.Wealthy pays. Is that fair?

Even Adam Smith understood the necessity of a progressive income tax.
The error in your story is that even without a progressive income tax (i.e. a flat tax), the nephew still pays less. Not to mention you forgot that the most powerful member of the family also protects the nephew from harm and bailed the nephew out a time or two when he got into some debt. If anything the nephew should save his money and take his uncle out to dinner.
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Trooperski View Post
The error in your story is that even without a progressive income tax (i.e. a flat tax), the nephew still pays less. Not to mention you forgot that the most powerful member of the family also protects the nephew from harm and bailed the nephew out a time or two when he got into some debt. If anything the nephew should save his money and take his uncle out to dinner.
No. Its the nephew who joins the military and gets his legs shot off. The wealthy uncle wants to have a powerful expensive military to protect HIS M.E. investments but he will send the poor nephew to do his dirty work. He has become wealthy taking advantage of the apparatus of civilization and resources of other nations. By the time he takes all of his deductions, (unavailable to his nephew) he is actually paying the same tax rate as his nephew, anyhow. Even Adam Smith knew a progressive tax rate is necessary.
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:16 AM
Trooperski Trooperski is offline
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No. Its the nephew who joins the military and gets his legs shot off. The wealthy uncle wants to have a powerful expensive military to protect HIS M.E. investments but he will send the poor nephew to do his dirty work. He has become wealthy taking advantage of the apparatus of civilization and resources of other nations. By the time he takes all of his deductions, (unavailable to his nephew) he is actually paying the same tax rate as his nephew, anyhow. Even Adam Smith knew a progressive tax rate is necessary.
Last time I checked we all have free will, even the nephew.

I know I hear people all the time talking about how little the rich pay, but those people who talk about it have yet to give specific examples. Doesn't the AMT take care of this? I thought the AMT was like 28% or something. That's in addition to any state taxes. Not to mention, the rich pay more sales tax, more payroll taxes (social security which they will never receive back), more personal property tax, etc. That is in addition to the AMT!!
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawhite View Post
For those making $50,000 a year, the average tax increase by letting the Bush tax plan expire in 2010 will be from $1400 to nearly $2000, depending whether you are single or what your filing status is.

Obama will let this present tax plan expire.

THEN he gives those same people making $50,000 a $1000 tax cut instead??? It seems to me that that is a $400 to $1000 tax INCREASE! Or is something wrong with my math???

McCain is keeping the Bush tax cuts and increasing the deductions for each child and other tax credits. So his $300 increase in tax credits will be an ACTUAL tax cut.

Seems like Obama is a sneaky snake oil salesman to me.

Think, people, think!
"McCain would make permanent most of the tax cuts President Bush has already enacted, including those that benefit the middle class, such as elimination of the marriage penalty and the increase in child credits. He would also keep cuts that benefit the wealthy, such as the elimination of the highest tax brackets. Obama would keep the breaks for the middle class but not the ones for the wealthy."


http://www.suntimes.com/news/politic...-tax30.article

Anyhow, you can only make generalized statement about the candidate's tax plans because it is complicated. The Tax Policy Center has a decent chart that compares the two.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxto...ues_matrix.cfm

Obviously, McCain is under the delusion that he can stimulate the economy by giving even larger tax breaks for unearned income (capital gains, inheritance). Obama prefers to give tax breaks to middle income earners.
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